Rage3D Discussion Area

Rage3D Discussion Area (http://www.rage3d.com/board/index.php)
-   Other Graphics Cards and 3D Technologies (http://www.rage3d.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=65)
-   -   Official Mining Thread (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34046664)

OverclockN' Jan 31, 2018 11:02 AM

This is not how credit cards work. YOU borrowed the money, YOU are responsible, and YOU are the one in debt. Not the bank. The required payments are just delayed. You aren't making a profit until the debt is paid for, no matter what. You simply pretending the balance doesn't exist or apply because payments are delayed...doesn't make the balance or debt irrelevant.

I'm not attempting to be negative about mining, and I sincerely want you and everyone in this thread to be profitable. But pretending $10,000 worth of debt doesn't count because a payment isn't due is absolutely crazy.

Curio, the ROI starts when the hardware is paid for.

curio Jan 31, 2018 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverclockN' (Post 1338050478)
This is not how credit cards work. YOU borrowed the money, YOU are responsible, and YOU are the one in debt. Not the bank. The required payments are just delayed. You aren't making a profit until the debt is paid for, no matter what. You simply pretending the balance doesn't exist or apply because payments are delayed...doesn't make the balance or debt irrelevant.

I'm not attempting to be negative about mining, and I sincerely want you and everyone in this thread to be profitable. But pretending $10,000 worth of debt doesn't count because a payment isn't due is absolutely crazy.

Curio, the ROI starts when the hardware is paid for.

No in my situation the return starts the moment I'm making more than what I owe in debt to the bank every month.

You'd be correct if I paid for all of this out of my own pocket all at once, but I didn't. If I dropped $10k out of my own bank account all at once - then yes, I wouldn't see a return until I got my money back. But the bank is carrying that debt for a full year at no interest - that's how I get an immediate ROI. By the time I even see a bill for that debt, I will have the money earned to pay for it plus $300.

Literally by the time I owe the bank $900 every month, I will already have $1200 in my bank to pay for it that came from mining. That's a net +$300 a month I'm gaining while the bank carries the debt for a year and charges me nothing for it while I pay it off.

curio Jan 31, 2018 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KAC (Post 1338050477)
Curio how many cards will you be mining with?
Current rate is $127 per card btw.

Eight 1080 Ti's

edit: and probably an additional 1080 non-Ti

KAC Jan 31, 2018 11:11 AM

Nice.

OverclockN' Jan 31, 2018 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curio (Post 1338050481)
No the return starts the moment you're making more than what you owe in debt. I will be making more every month than I owe; and my bank account will go up by $300 every month.

Again for the third time now, what do you call that extra $300 a month if it's not profit?

You'd be correct if I paid for all of this out of my own pocket all at once, but I didn't. If I dropped $10k out of my own bank account all at once - then yes, I wouldn't see a return until I got my money back. But the bank is carrying that debt for a full year for no interest - that's how I get an immediate ROI. By the time I even see a bill for that debt, I will have the money earned to pay for it plus $300.

You have $10,000 in debt, period. The ROI starts when that negative balance is gone (when the hardware is paid for). However, you can manipulate the numbers any way you want so that it makes you feel comfortable. In fact, that's how banks and credit card companies work. Their primary goal and how they structure loans is to make people think this way.

curio Jan 31, 2018 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverclockN' (Post 1338050487)
You have $10,000 in debt, period. The ROI starts when that negative balance is gone (when the hardware is paid for). However, you can manipulate the numbers any way you want so that it makes you feel comfortable. In fact, that's how banks and credit card companies work. Their primary goal and how they structure loans is to make people think this way.

Call it anything you want or spin it anyway you want Overclockin - that's your prerogative - but here's the fact of the matter: I will have approximately an additional $1200 in my bank account generated by mining each month by the time I owe the bank a $900 monthly payment; assuming current bitcoin prices maintain.

So not only have I not spent a dime out of my own bank account yet, but by the time I owe my payments on the mining hardware, I will have the money generated by mining to pay for it in my bank account already - plus $300 extra. So outside of a substantial coin market price drop (it would have to generate less than the $900 a month that I owe to be the case), my bank account over the next year won't drop even one penny less from where it was before I bought all this hardware. In fact it should actually go up even while I'm making payments. If all goes to plan, I should have the interest free loan paid off in less than a year plus an additional $3,600 in my bank account by January 2019.

Personally I'll take an extra $300 "not a profit" and "not a ROI" every month while also paying off an interest free loan any day - so call it whatever you want; fact still is that at current coin prices, 25% more money will be deposited into my bank account every month from mining than what I will owe the bank every month from the mining hardware purchases.

Riptide Jan 31, 2018 11:51 AM

Long term I have doubts that cryptocurrency as not controlled by a central bank is going to replace fiat.

You have large segment of our population and most "mainstream" economists who think fiat currency is the way to go. They have marginalized pretty much any other way of approaching the issue now to such a degree that I don't see it changing any time soon.

They would be out of control and unable to simply "print" more crypto - hard to see how it will be allowed to replace fiat any time in the near future as in decades plus if not longer.

Many people and economists think a central bank is a GOOD thing. I don't necessarily agree with that however it is what it is and isn't changing any time soon.

OverclockN' Jan 31, 2018 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curio (Post 1338050491)
25% more money will be deposited into my bank account every month from mining than what I will owe the bank every month from the mining hardware purchases.

Absolutely, can't argue that.

I had no intention to preach, so I apologize if it came off that way. I just think it's important for anyone that may be reading this and thinking about getting into mining to understand the distinction of ROI, and when it begins.

In our particular example, that investment is $10,000. A person can't have a return on their investment, if the investment still hasn't been paid for by revenue generated. That was my only point.

curio Jan 31, 2018 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverclockN' (Post 1338050509)
Absolutely, can't argue that.

I had no intention to preach, so I apologize if it came off that way. I just think it's important for anyone that may be reading this and thinking about getting into mining to understand the distinction of ROI, and when it begins.

In our particular example, that investment is $10,000. A person can't have a return on their investment, if the investment still hasn't been paid for by revenue generated. That was my only point.

It's alright, I'm Mr. Preachy himself. But I still disagree; even though we simply seem to be quibbling about semantics and definitions - I think it's an important point I'm making that you seem to be missing. Or maybe you're getting it, but I don't think I'm getting through.

My point here is that at no point do I ever go below the money I had in my bank account to begin with if I never would have done this mining. I never once lose money on this nor not see a return; unless the market tanked.

The only way I will lose money here is if I generate less than $910/month mining; since that is what I will owe for the next 11 months.

nycdarkness Jan 31, 2018 01:00 PM

The only good thing about all this is the gpus are still worth something even if it goes to crap.

curio Jan 31, 2018 01:01 PM

Let's assume I have $50k in my account (lol) and no other deposits or transactions other than mining and bank payments for the loan, which I have to pay about $910 a month for 11 months to pay off and avoid interest penalties. This is what my account balances would look like starting from day one:

Starting January 26th bank account balance: $50,000.00

January 27th: Purchase $10k of hardware on interest free loan: Bank account still at $50,000.00

*start mining a week later after getting all the hardware*

February 3rd through February 27th, earning ~$40/day: (24days x $40 = $960), bank account balance on February 27th: $50k + $960 = $50,960.00

First payment due on February 27th: <$910.00>; bank balance: ($50,960 - $910) = $50,050.00

So by the end of February, I'm up $50.

----------------------------------

Same process, fast forward another month:

February 28th - March 28th mining at ~$40/day: (28 days x $40 = $1,120); bank account balance on March 28th: ($50,050 + $1,120) = $51,170

March 29th make 2nd of 11 payments: <$910.00>; bank balance: ($51,170 - $910) = $50,260.00

That's $260 more in my bank than I had when I started in just two months, while also making the payments on the hardware loan

----------------------------------

And so on and so forth.... every month my bank account balance goes up even while still making payments on the debt. And more importantly, at no point did I lose money here or did my bank account go lower than it was before I started - assuming the market doesn't tank.

nycdarkness Jan 31, 2018 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curio (Post 1338050519)
Let's assume I have $50k in my account (lol) and no other deposits or transactions other than mining and bank payments for the loan, which I have to pay about $910 a month for 11 months to pay off. This is what my account balances would look like starting from day one:

Starting January 26th bank account balance: $50,000.00

January 27th: Purchase $10k of hardware on interest free loan: Bank account still at $50,000.00

*start mining a week later after getting all the hardware*

February 3rd through February 27th, earning ~$40/day: (24days x $40 = $960)

Bank account balance on February 27th: $50k + $960 = $50,960.00

First payment due on February 27th: <$910.00>

February 28th bank balance: ($50,960 - $910) = $50,050.00

So by the end of February, I'm up $50.

----------------------------------

Same process, fast forward another month:

February 28th - March 28th mining at ~$40/day: (28 days x $40 = $1,120)

Bank account balance as of March 28th: ($50,050 + $1,120) = $51,170

Make 2nd of 11 payments: <$910.00>

March 29th bank balance: ($51,170 - $910) = $50,260.00

That's $260 more in my bank than I had when I started in just two months, while also making the payments

----------------------------------

And so on and so forth.... every month my bank account balance goes up even while still making payments on the debt

0% apr cards are a free loan granted you already have a high credit limit in general and can pay off in time. I don't see any reason why not to. AS LONG AS YOU CAN PAY IT OFF right from the getgo.

curio Jan 31, 2018 01:07 PM

Exactly

LordHawkwind Jan 31, 2018 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curio (Post 1338050519)
Let's assume I have $50k in my account (lol) and no other deposits or transactions other than mining and bank payments for the loan, which I have to pay about $910 a month for 11 months to pay off and avoid interest penalties. This is what my account balances would look like starting from day one:

Starting January 26th bank account balance: $50,000.00

January 27th: Purchase $10k of hardware on interest free loan: Bank account still at $50,000.00

*start mining a week later after getting all the hardware*

February 3rd through February 27th, earning ~$40/day: (24days x $40 = $960), bank account balance on February 27th: $50k + $960 = $50,960.00

First payment due on February 27th: <$910.00>; bank balance: ($50,960 - $910) = $50,050.00

So by the end of February, I'm up $50.

----------------------------------

Same process, fast forward another month:

February 28th - March 28th mining at ~$40/day: (28 days x $40 = $1,120); bank account balance on March 28th: ($50,050 + $1,120) = $51,170

March 29th make 2nd of 11 payments: <$910.00>; bank balance: ($51,170 - $910) = $50,260.00

That's $260 more in my bank than I had when I started in just two months, while also making the payments on the hardware loan

----------------------------------

And so on and so forth.... every month my bank account balance goes up even while still making payments on the debt. And more importantly, at no point did I lose money here or did my bank account go lower than it was before I started - assuming the market doesn't tank. It would have to drop to $32/day for me to lose on this during the repayment term on the loan - which is possible; but I'm still looking good. I'm in the black.

So following your logic of having $50k in the bank why bother borrowing the $10k and have to pay $910 pm to pay it off? I get your account would drop to $40k but you'd have no risk and could therefore ride any crypto price drops. All a price drop would do is extend the time to get back to $50K and it might take 18 months instead of one year, so what.

Your borrowing scenario seems to be based wholly on the premise that the price will stay the same (or go up) which is basically a fallacy. Look at the price since the beginning of this month! So if you borrow $10k and the price drops 50% (stress testing) you're now getting $560 but your debt is still $910 so you have to make up the remaining $340 each month. Doesn't look so rosy then does it. There is no such thing as a free lunch or an infallible get rich quick scheme. Without being personal what there is are millions of suckers who end up losing a lot of money. How does the saying go, there's one born every minute.

As I said I'm not intending any personal aside here it's just a general comment.

Dave Jan 31, 2018 03:54 PM

Where did this $910 a month come from? :bleh: The 6 1080 Ti's and the mining rig I bought went on my amazon card too, 12 months no interest and no monthly payments. I can ignore it for 12 months until interest starts being added.

curio Jan 31, 2018 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordHawkwind (Post 1338050549)
So following your logic of having $50k in the bank why bother borrowing the $10k and have to pay $910 pm to pay it off? I get your account would drop to $40k but you'd have no risk and could therefore ride any crypto price drops. All a price drop would do is extend the time to get back to $50K and it might take 18 months instead of one year, so what.

That's a damn good point - one of the reasons I don't dip into my bank account and instead use the card on an interest free loan is to not only spread the expense out for a year for no extra expense - but also because it helps my credit score in the US by using my credit and paying it off every month. Even though I'm coming close to my credit limit on this card, I'm still only using less than 20% of my overall available credit so I'm not considered a risk - and it gives me another year of monthly payments that keeps my credit accounts open and happy.

That's the logic. Of course this is all assuming that prices maintain. But if prices don't maintain, I do have the money to pay it off before the 12-month deadline anyway. But it costs me nothing to let them carry that debt for a year in the mean time, and it keeps my good credit score propped up into the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordHawkwind (Post 1338050549)
Your borrowing scenario seems to be based wholly on the premise that the price will stay the same (or go up) which is basically a fallacy. Look at the price since the beginning of this month! So if you borrow $10k and the price drops 50% (stress testing) you're now getting $560 but your debt is still $910 so you have to make up the remaining $340 each month. Doesn't look so rosy then does it. There is no such thing as a free lunch or an infallible get rich quick scheme. Without being personal what there is are millions of suckers who end up losing a lot of money. How does the saying go, there's one born every minute.

As I said I'm not intending any personal aside here it's just a general comment.

Indeed it's a risk like all investments or market playing really.

But I'm not in this for the short term, I'll probably be mining for the long run. My guess so far is that cryptocurrencies aren't really a fad, but will be around for decades. That's the gamble really. Either way after I pay off my initial investment, as long as it's making more than the electricity costs - I'm making money.

And to make back my initial investment, I just need about 9 months to a year for the market to stay around where it's at. Since the bank is carrying that debt for that time period, all I need to worry about is making monthly payments to pay it back by the 12-month interest free deadline. Unless of course the market tanks before then.

Worse case scenario here, if coins drops and the market takes a massive dive well before I can pay off my interest free loan, then I'll pay off the loan before the deadline and then either wait longer to get my investment money back - or I'd have to take probably a $7,000 loss after I have to re-sell my video cards for half of what I bought them for - since they'll probably be worth a lot less with the market flooded with used video cards for sale because bitcoin crashed.

So very worst case scenario is I'm out $7k if the market tanks in the next year, very best case scenario is I'm making anywhere from $5 to $50k a year extra for years after. I'll take that risk with my investment money; worth it to me.

andino Jan 31, 2018 07:47 PM

EVGA just raised the price of the hybrid 1080ti SC's $50.00 and the FTW's $50.00....

>:(

OverclockN' Jan 31, 2018 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andino (Post 1338050588)
EVGA just raised the price of the hybrid 1080ti SC's $40.00 and the FTW's $50.00....

>:(

Yep, their SC2 Gaming boards went up $50 as well.

KAC Jan 31, 2018 08:25 PM

Well glad my hybrids shipped at MSRP of 819.

andino Feb 1, 2018 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KAC (Post 1338050601)
Well glad my hybrids shipped at MSRP of 819.


Where did you get yours?

KAC Feb 1, 2018 12:07 AM

I bought everything from Amazon.

KAC Feb 1, 2018 12:32 AM

This is by far the best video I have seen :lol:
I am expecting to make a similar video soon.


andino Feb 1, 2018 01:32 AM

"You got this ram chip that goes into this slot here by the fan thing."

And that is why I am staying away from the used market for a few years!!!

:lol:


I'm pretty sure that you'll do better than that guy by a long shot. Plus you have much better gear than him.

I have made $20 in 3 days that I wouldn't have made before installing the program. And that is with 2 980ti's. And NiceHash turned off about 1/2 of the time. Even if the thing makes $5 a day that is $5 a day more than I was making before I mined. So that's a plus for me.

KAC Feb 1, 2018 01:40 AM

The guy actually made quite a fantastic rig case though. I wish the one I had bought had space to keep the card risers in place properly.

KAC Feb 1, 2018 02:24 AM

Got my account setup to withdraw. Need to mine some more and see how much do I make what with all these transfer fees and crap.

Charges to withdraw to my bank account in my country are 6 dollars flat for up to USD 2800 per week. I think I can increase these limits once I gots some traction with this exchange.

KAC Feb 1, 2018 04:24 AM

So apart from my 2 Hybrids everything has been shipped. Can't wait. I love Amazon. :drool:

Riptide Feb 1, 2018 07:34 AM

Couple questions.

Other than coinbase what options are there to cash out back to USD either via paypal or direct deposit? Coinbase is still jacked up no paypal functionality.

KAC:
If you want to buy some XVG or some XZC send me a PM. I'm selling them cheap. Small positions - so not a huge holding here. Anyone else interested let me know via PM. Direct wallet->wallet means no fees and I'm selling at a discount.

KAC Feb 1, 2018 07:45 AM

Haven’t even started and whattomine says I will be making 40 a day with 9 cards. This ****ing sucks. It was about 55-60 not 1-1.5 weeks ago.

Riptide Feb 1, 2018 07:47 AM

lol why is this a surprise?

Have you gone to coinmarketcap? The market is in a selloff again dude.

curio Feb 1, 2018 09:38 AM

Yeah if you're in this for the short run hoping to make a good gain, you're going to have a bad time.

Especially with rumors like crackdown taxing in China & South Korea; and other rumors by the NYT about bitcoin pricing being propped up and artificially inflated. If you're going to do a full mining rig, you need to hamper those expectations and stick with the long haul - or get out now while you can


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:41 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All trademarks used are properties of their respective owners. Copyright 1998-2011 Rage3D.com