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-   -   HDTV Wonder Discussion (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33765673)

xsvcd Aug 11, 2004 07:45 AM

Well it looks like the 8500DV with the HDTV Wonder is a no go. I installed it last night and everything works except I get a fatal display error when I start the DTV app. I see the HD video come up but then my TV just gets all scrambled like it has lost sync. Oh well I guess it is time that I upgrade that old clunker anyway. Are there any good suggestions for a primary ATI video card. I need s-video out(because it is not hooked to a monitor) and DVI(because I use the component video adapter to output 720p). However, I donít necessarily need an All-in-Wonder card because the HDTV has all of the inputs that I need(rca, s-video, co-axial, and HD OTA).

xsvcd Aug 11, 2004 08:11 AM

Does anyone know if the ATI 9600SE is a decent video card. It seems to be the only video card that will work with the HDTV Wonder that is less than $150. I don't play many games so the 3d speed is not that important to me.

Dimahnbloe Aug 11, 2004 11:32 AM

Dude, if you don't mind refurbished goods, then go to Newegg.com and look under their refurb section. I was there last night and they had two all in wonders available, one is an AIW9700Pro for 150 and the other is an AIW9800Pro for 200. From what I understand the AIW9700 pro's is a hit or miss even brand new. Some of them have a horrid TV tuner on board that make certain channels unviewable, but I don't think that I have heard of this problem on the AIW9800Pro's, the other thing is that you might not get some of the cables or accessories that came with it but you could always use the accessories from your current card. Just a suggestion.

EMunEeE Aug 11, 2004 01:06 PM

A 9600SE will suffice for your HDTV Wonder. Just make sure it has all the output ports (DVI, SVIDEO, etc.) that you need.

xsvcd Aug 11, 2004 01:27 PM

Actually I donít really see the difference between the HDTV wonder and an all-in-wonder video card. The HDTV wonder has all of the inputs that I need(rca, s-video, co-axial cable, and OTA HD). And when it is combined with a card like the 9600SE then you add all of the outputs that you need(s-video, vga, DVI, and component).

PGHammer Aug 11, 2004 03:48 PM

*Included* ATI MPEG codecs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulik
Most likely, the performance differences are due to which MPEG decoder is used.
The best way to compare decoders is to use the MS graphedit utility and render HD MPEG file (or HD VCR file).

In auto-render, it will use the default decoder on the system (if it's Ligos or Mainconcept, you're screwed). You can then try explicitely inserting a MPEG decoder such as:
- Cyberlink DTV Video Decoder
- ATI MPEG Video Decoder
- Intervideo Video Decoder
In each case, play the file and look at the cpu usage. You'll also see if the decoder is using hw acceleration through the media type betwen the decoder and renderer (should say DXVA for video acceleration).

ATI includes the MPEG-2 codec with all versions of MMC (8.x and later); while MMC 9.1 (included with the HDTV Wonder) includes their new MPEG-4 codec as well. The native format for HD content (regardless of resolution) is MPEG-2 (which, surprisingly, is also the new default format for MMC 9,0/9.1).
Windows Media Player *can* use ATI's codecs (and vice versa), so there must be something else that ATI is doing to reduce CPU piggishness during *playback* (not recording).

Grimister Aug 11, 2004 04:33 PM

Am I overlooking something about the MMC numbering? isnt the version that is coming with the HDTV 9.0.1 and the current download version 9.1.0????

ben6 Aug 11, 2004 06:11 PM

Grimster 9.1.0 does NOT support HDTV Wonder IIRC

ben6 Aug 11, 2004 06:12 PM

Well you will be missing mulTView if that's important to you. Otherwise a 9600SE+HDTV Wonder will give you the other features+OTA HDTV

Grimister Aug 11, 2004 07:51 PM

HDTV does not come with the IIRC

ben6 Aug 11, 2004 07:55 PM

Huh? IIRC= If I recall correctly

Grimister Aug 11, 2004 08:05 PM

Here's another problem, I am having a hard time getting any conversion software to read the mpeg2 files that the LIBRARY app exports the HDTV files out to, the HD MPEG2 format is the full stream that was captured. If you convert down to any of the other formats in the library app the file is still 59.94 fps. All saved at an odd frame rate great for quality but lousy for converting. The few programs i get to read the files tends to get the audio and video out of sync after half hour or so. The HD frame size tends to kill alot of the programs then some of the others hate them having the ac3 audio. I think we need a new conversion program for HD captures. Doe's anyone know of anything made for such??

Grimister Aug 11, 2004 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben6
Huh? IIRC= If I recall correctly


I don't use chat programs so I am rusty. I thought you was talking about the Remote wonder II.... Oooops.

Hyrax Aug 11, 2004 09:12 PM

What retail stores have the HD tv tuner? Why isnt it at bestbuy, circuit city, compusa,etc yet??? :confused:

CBrewer Aug 11, 2004 09:19 PM

I got mine at Fry's.

Hyrax Aug 11, 2004 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBrewer
I got mine at Fry's.

no frys in MI :(

tristancarton Aug 12, 2004 02:18 AM

HDTV Wonder Received: I love that strange and funky box. Good job being different ati. Installed all that was on cd to my main p3 1133 tualatin system. Usually I just install the tv function but figured this time I was going all out.

Digital TV looks very good even in just upconverted broadcasts. Antenna placement took a few minutes but after fidgeting I am getting clear broadcasts. The whole multimedia system 9.0 looks good and everything seems to function fine except for the analog tuner.

For some reason when I start it up it says the tv player can not be initialized and then goes through the pc check test and comes up with the conclusion that directx 9 or greater is not installed. 9.0c was installed before hdtv installation and I even reinstalled it after the installation to see if I could fix the analog tuner error. It didn't. In addition to saying directx 9.0 wasn't installed it says that the capture driver infs are not installed and I can clearly see that they are in the device manager under sound video game controllers(shows 5 ati dtv/ananlog devices in there none with yellow flags)

If anyone has had this same analog tuner problem and fixed it, please respond or pm me.

Also one more question. How do I enable 6 speaker sound in the dtv program. My only sound options are 2 speaker in the pull down menu and the pass through thing that says pass through cyberlink audio renderer. I have an audigy 2 zs with the newest drivers running straight analog out to my z680s. Shouldn't there be a pull down option to decode and downmix into 6 channels? (like powerdvd 5.0 has)

Anyhow I will write a little bit more about the whole package tomorrow. So far after a few hours I am pretty happy with it. (It's the first driver. Fixes will be coming to problems we see right now.)

xsvcd Aug 12, 2004 08:20 AM

What is the better card the ATI 9600XT or the ATI 9800 PRO 128 meg version? The price difference is $50.

Andrew 1961 Aug 12, 2004 10:47 AM

Reload the WDM -- sometimes the yellow flag doesn't show and reloading it fixes things. ALSO, sometimes, depending on what apps you've been running, you don't have TO reload, but reboot fixes things. I've had screwed up sound (volume UP and DOWN w/NOISE!) after using the RealTEK audio Effects application where rebooting fixed everything.

ATi uses the passthrough for the Digital sound. Even PowerDVD requires an upgrade or full package to get the 6-channel decoding -- their OEM provides the SP/DIF out which is what ATi is doing. This is fine for most, but that HD of Windows Media and their WMA decoder is the culprit -- requiring all 6 channels be connected to your audio receiver to pass the sound properly. But that's another discussion.

doctj Aug 12, 2004 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimister
Here's another problem, I am having a hard time getting any conversion software to read the mpeg2 files that the LIBRARY app exports the HDTV files out to, the HD MPEG2 format is the full stream that was captured. If you convert down to any of the other formats in the library app the file is still 59.94 fps. All saved at an odd frame rate great for quality but lousy for converting. The few programs i get to read the files tends to get the audio and video out of sync after half hour or so. The HD frame size tends to kill alot of the programs then some of the others hate them having the ac3 audio. I think we need a new conversion program for HD captures. Doe's anyone know of anything made for such??

Are you saying the library does not convert HDTV files into DVD compliant files?

tristancarton Aug 12, 2004 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xsvcd
What is the better card the ATI 9600XT or the ATI 9800 PRO 128 meg version? The price difference is $50.

Difference between 9800 pro and 9600xt is immense if you are a gamer and well worth the 50 dollars. However if your computer has a small power supply or has very little circulation a 9600xt may be better. (Less power and heat)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew 1961
Reload the WDM -- sometimes the yellow flag doesn't show and reloading it fixes things. ALSO, sometimes, depending on what apps you've been running, you don't have TO reload, but reboot fixes things. I've had screwed up sound (volume UP and DOWN w/NOISE!) after using the RealTEK audio Effects application where rebooting fixed everything.

ATi uses the passthrough for the Digital sound. Even PowerDVD requires an upgrade or full package to get the 6-channel decoding -- their OEM provides the SP/DIF out which is what ATi is doing. This is fine for most, but that HD of Windows Media and their WMA decoder is the culprit -- requiring all 6 channels be connected to your audio receiver to pass the sound properly. But that's another discussion.

Already tried reloading wdm drivers. Didn't help. Going to try some other uninstall and reinstall routines.

Andrew, are you saying that ati only has the digital passthrough method and that the hdtv wonder audio can not be decoded like the 6 speaker version of powerdvd or the way windows decodes high def videos that you can download off their website?

I have an audigy 2 zs capable of dolby digital and dts decoding and hooked through three analog cables to my logitech z680s. All 5.1 games run fine and have sound seperation. I have the higher powerdvd version with software decoding and use that along with the 6 speaker output that is included in that retail package(oem only has 2 channel audio). I will also note that 5.1 WMV HD content from microsoft's website has no problem whatsoever seperating the audio channels and sending them analog to my 680s.

I would have thought that ati would have a pull down decode to 6 channel speakers option. Instead my install just has the two channel speakers(with that a pro logic mode) option and has some option to send through cyberlink powerdvd. This option is not very well documented in the install guide and I can not get a clear understanding of what it does. My assumptions are that it is a digital output passthrough but I don't want to use the passthrough because I only run analog cables to my speakers and I want all of the digital to analog conversion to take place on the software/sound card level.

I will be playing around with this a lot the next day or two and checking back here often in hope that some ati hdtv wonder guru can address issues that have sprung up in my install.

Other new notes:
Got to see my first true hdtv show today(not upconverted) Looks absolutely stunning even on a monitor only runnign 1280x1024.

Any else getting freeze then blue screen videoport.sys errors after running the dtv app for a while? I am going to try and figure out why my install of windows had not seen any errors like this until this hdtv wonder was installed.

Any one getting no video through the dtv app(just black screen) after you record an hdtv program and then export it? My video just doesn't want to come up and a restart is needed to get rid of the problem.(looks totally like an overlay issue)

BTW- Thanks for helping me out all of you hdtv wonder guys. Very much appreciated. Once I get this thing runnning smoothly I am going to be one happy man.

doctj Aug 12, 2004 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tristancarton

Any else getting freeze then blue screen videoport.sys errors after running the dtv app for a while? I am going to try and figure out why my install of windows had not seen any errors like this until this hdtv wonder was installed.

Any one getting no video through the dtv app(just black screen) after you record an hdtv program and then export it? My video just doesn't want to come up and a restart is needed to get rid of the problem.(looks totally like an overlay issue)

BTW- Thanks for helping me out all of you hdtv wonder guys. Very much appreciated. Once I get this thing runnning smoothly I am going to be one happy man.

MMC doesn't play too well with window server software. You have to turn off terminal services I think but go to ATI's site for a proper description.

Grimister Aug 12, 2004 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctj
Are you saying the library does not convert HDTV files into DVD compliant files?

From what I can tell it seems that the mpeg files stay 59.94 frames per sec after conversion. That's what the error from 2 diff. dvd burning programs tell me.

grog Aug 12, 2004 10:05 PM

Not an error. Progressive scan doubles the frame rate by design.

720p = 59.940 FPS (progressive)
1080i = 29.970 FPS (not progressive)

This is just the 1st time you have seen HDTV content transcoded into DVD format.

Yes it would be nice to have more control over the process and it would be nice if MPEG transcoding options such as FPS were available in the ATI MEDIA LIBRARY EXPORT functions but it is not.

It does take a long time to transcode from progressive 59.94 FPS to non-progressive 29.97 FPS mode.

DVD's do include the specification for progressive scan and 720P ([email protected]) is within the specs for DVD.

I did notice a problem and reported it to ATI on the conversion with the library from 720P DTV content to DVD High-Quality mode directly, but I do have a work around for everyone till it is fixed.

a.) Export DTV video Ď720p contentí to HD-MEG2
b.) Drag exported video back to library and convert the newly created video to DVD format.

The newly created DVD formated file will play perfect. Yes it is still progressive scan but it is very DVD complient.

Linux checks with mplayer (note: all content played under Linux)

Original file (DTV HD-MPEG2)
$ mplayer -identify 720p-2.mpg
ID_FILENAME=720p-2.mpg
ID_VIDEO_FORMAT=0x10000002
ID_VIDEO_BITRATE=80000000
ID_VIDEO_WIDTH=1280
ID_VIDEO_HEIGHT=720
ID_VIDEO_FPS=59.940
ID_VIDEO_ASPECT=1.7778
ID_AUDIO_CODEC=a52
ID_AUDIO_FORMAT=8192
ID_AUDIO_BITRATE=384000
ID_AUDIO_RATE=48000
ID_AUDIO_NCH=2
ID_LENGTH=1

Newly created file (DVD High-Quality)
$ mplayer -identify 720p-2-toDVDHQ.mpg
D_FILENAME=720p-2-toDVDHQ.mpg
ID_VIDEO_FORMAT=0x10000002
ID_VIDEO_BITRATE=8000000
ID_VIDEO_WIDTH=720
ID_VIDEO_HEIGHT=480
ID_VIDEO_FPS=59.940
ID_VIDEO_ASPECT=1.3333
ID_AUDIO_CODEC=mp3
ID_AUDIO_FORMAT=80
ID_AUDIO_BITRATE=224000
ID_AUDIO_RATE=48000
ID_AUDIO_NCH=2

Original file (DTV HD-MPEG2)
$ mplayer -identify 1080i.mpg
ID_FILENAME=1080i.mpg
ID_VIDEO_FORMAT=0x10000002
ID_VIDEO_BITRATE=18900000
ID_VIDEO_WIDTH=1920
ID_VIDEO_HEIGHT=1080
ID_VIDEO_FPS=29.970
ID_VIDEO_ASPECT=1.7778
ID_AUDIO_CODEC=a52
ID_AUDIO_FORMAT=8192
ID_AUDIO_BITRATE=384000
ID_AUDIO_RATE=48000
ID_AUDIO_NCH=2
ID_LENGTH=6

Newly created file (DVD High-Quality)
$ mplayer -identify 1080i.toDVDHQ.mpg
ID_FILENAME=1080i.toDVDHQ.mpg
ID_VIDEO_FORMAT=0x10000002
ID_VIDEO_BITRATE=8000000
ID_VIDEO_WIDTH=720
ID_VIDEO_HEIGHT=480
ID_VIDEO_FPS=29.970
ID_VIDEO_ASPECT=1.3333
ID_AUDIO_CODEC=mp3
ID_AUDIO_FORMAT=80
ID_AUDIO_BITRATE=224000
ID_AUDIO_RATE=48000
ID_AUDIO_NCH=2
ID_LENGTH=2

Note: The 1080i content is 29.970 FPS as expected since it is not progressive.

File sizes:

720p-2.mpg = 12.2 MB
720p-2-toDVDHQ.mpg = 4.76 MB
1080i.mpg = 14.8 MB
1080i.toDVDmpg.mpg = 2.48 MB

The bitrate is changed between the files shown but the ATI software does not change the FPS and thus does not downgrade the video from progressive to interlaced.

As I said, not a bug, but for those who would like the feature it would be nice to see. I don't know what you are using to convert the content but I do know 1st hand many DVD transcoders do not know how to do it right.

InterVideo WinDVD Creator can not do it correctly but MyDVD works like a champ and the DVD's created from DTV HD-MEG2 exported files are transcoded perfectly! Yes they play fine too!

Greg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimister
From what I can tell it seems that the mpeg files stay 59.94 frames per sec after conversion. That's what the error from 2 diff. dvd burning programs tell me.


dwellen Aug 13, 2004 08:26 AM

Writing to DVD
 
I have also found that you have to export the video to HD-PEG2 in
order to transcode the video to DVD. The problem that I have
is the process works up to the acual writing of the DVD and at that
point the programs tells me that the DVD has errored. Using the
same DVD+RW on any other program works fine.

Is there anyway to find and fix this error or where does ATI
store the DVD structure so that another program can be used
to write the DVD?

Thanks
Dana Wellen

grog Aug 13, 2004 08:43 AM

I will give it a try with the built in DVD burning support this weekend.
Should work as long as the content is already in DVD format not DTV HD-MPEG2.

So you will have to export from DTV to HD-MPEG2 then export the HD-MPEG2 to DVD High-Quality. Bug I reported already!. This DVD High-Quality image should work fine.

Since the built in support using Sonic MyDVD I don't know why it would not work. I have MyDVD and it worked as a stand-alone product.

What DVD burner do you have? Maybe one that is not supported my MyDVD?

Greg

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwellen
I have also found that you have to export the video to HD-PEG2 in
order to transcode the video to DVD. The problem that I have
is the process works up to the acual writing of the DVD and at that
point the programs tells me that the DVD has errored. Using the
same DVD+RW on any other program works fine.

Is there anyway to find and fix this error or where does ATI
store the DVD structure so that another program can be used
to write the DVD?

Thanks
Dana Wellen


xsvcd Aug 13, 2004 09:06 AM

Overall I am absolutely thrilled with my HDTV wonder and my new 9800Pro.
 
Ok I must say that I really think the ATI HDTV wonder is an excellent product. I am not saying that it is anywhere near perfect but it does work as advertised.

First off donít bother buying the HDTV card unless you have an ATI 9500 or above AGP video card. If your card does not FULLY support Directx9 then the HD DTV application will not work properly. I confirmed this by installing the HDTV wonder on my rig with an ATI 8500DV card and the Sound Blaster Audigy 2 NX external usb device. Everything worked perfectly except the DTV application. When I started the DTV app I would see one frame of the HD video and then it would go to green scrambled lines. Then I went out and dropped some mad cash on an ATI 9800Pro and tried the HDTV wonder again. I used the ATI uninstall utility in add and remove programs and then I reinstalled by only using the software on the HDTV wonderís cd. Everything worked perfectly. If you donít want to drop a huge amount of cash then try the ATI 9600Se card. That is a pretty cheap card and it will work.

As far as the Audio dropouts go. THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM WITH THE AUDIGY SOUND CARDS! I think that this is a problem with the actual HD feeds that we are receiving! Several channels had numerous audio dropouts(FOX, ABC, and PBS). However, I switched over to my Time Warner HD cable box and the exact same channels had dropouts in the exact same place. Fox is doing some testing on their new 720p channel(I can confirm that we are receiving FOX at 720p in our area now) so they have screwed up the audio. This occurs on the over the air signal and since Time Warner gets it from the same place it occurs with cable also. Donít blame the ATI HDTV card for not being compatible with the Audigy cards. You need to complain to your local station that their broadcast is crap.

Overall I am absolutely thrilled with my HDTV wonder and my new 9800Pro. I was able to record CSI in 1080i with out any problems. Oh yea, I actually have my HTPC hooked up to my 50Ē Sony GWIII LCD at 720p so I was able to compare the picture quality of HD cable to the over the air HD picture quality. Believe it or not the HDTV wonder picture was much better than the cable even though the HDTV wonder was being down converted to 720p by my computer. Granted I have my computer tweaked pretty well so I think it looks great but there is definitely a noticeable picture quality improvement with the HDTV wonder.

The only thing I havenít got working is the Dolby Digital pass through. It looks like that option was left out of this software but I am not sure of that. There werenít any dolby digital broadcasts last night so I couldnít test it. However, the Olympics are tonight so that should be a good test.

dwellen Aug 13, 2004 09:21 AM

DVD Burning
 
I have the Pioneer DVD-107D and its listed on the MyDVD supported
hardware list. Exporting to anything other than HD-Mpeg will convert
the video from 16:9 to 4:3 as far as I can tell. I would like to be able
to record widescreen, I guess ATI needs to work out a few bugs.

Thanks
Dana Wellen

tristancarton Aug 13, 2004 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xsvcd
Ok I must say that I really think the ATI HDTV wonder is an excellent product. I am not saying that it is anywhere near perfect but it does work as advertised.

First off donít bother buying the HDTV card unless you have an ATI 9500 or above AGP video card. If your card does not FULLY support Directx9 then the HD DTV application will not work properly. I confirmed this by installing the HDTV wonder on my rig with an ATI 8500DV card and the Sound Blaster Audigy 2 NX external usb device. Everything worked perfectly except the DTV application. When I started the DTV app I would see one frame of the HD video and then it would go to green scrambled lines. Then I went out and dropped some mad cash on an ATI 9800Pro and tried the HDTV wonder again. I used the ATI uninstall utility in add and remove programs and then I reinstalled by only using the software on the HDTV wonderís cd. Everything worked perfectly. If you donít want to drop a huge amount of cash then try the ATI 9600Se card. That is a pretty cheap card and it will work.

As far as the Audio dropouts go. THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM WITH THE AUDIGY SOUND CARDS! I think that this is a problem with the actual HD feeds that we are receiving! Several channels had numerous audio dropouts(FOX, ABC, and PBS). However, I switched over to my Time Warner HD cable box and the exact same channels had dropouts in the exact same place. Fox is doing some testing on their new 720p channel(I can confirm that we are receiving FOX at 720p in our area now) so they have screwed up the audio. This occurs on the over the air signal and since Time Warner gets it from the same place it occurs with cable also. Donít blame the ATI HDTV card for not being compatible with the Audigy cards. You need to complain to your local station that their broadcast is crap.

Overall I am absolutely thrilled with my HDTV wonder and my new 9800Pro. I was able to record CSI in 1080i with out any problems. Oh yea, I actually have my HTPC hooked up to my 50Ē Sony GWIII LCD at 720p so I was able to compare the picture quality of HD cable to the over the air HD picture quality. Believe it or not the HDTV wonder picture was much better than the cable even though the HDTV wonder was being down converted to 720p by my computer. Granted I have my computer tweaked pretty well so I think it looks great but there is definitely a noticeable picture quality improvement with the HDTV wonder.

The only thing I havenít got working is the Dolby Digital pass through. It looks like that option was left out of this software but I am not sure of that. There werenít any dolby digital broadcasts last night so I couldnít test it. However, the Olympics are tonight so that should be a good test.

All of my exact feelings and thoughts. I watched CSI(weird show last night), without a trace, and leno last night all in 1080i.(although my monitor res is only set at 1600x1200) I must say I have fallen in love with a computer component, the hdtv wonder's picture is amazing. Just wished we had more than 5-10 hdtv programs eacy day.(Come on why isn't conan in hd)

Anyhow just had to post that I agree completely with your post. Haven't had audio problems with a good signal, still can't get dolby digital to function in this mmc.

Grimister Aug 13, 2004 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwellen
I have the Pioneer DVD-107D and its listed on the MyDVD supported
hardware list. Exporting to anything other than HD-Mpeg will convert
the video from 16:9 to 4:3 as far as I can tell. I would like to be able
to record widescreen, I guess ATI needs to work out a few bugs.

Thanks
Dana Wellen


I use a small mpeg header patch program to switch the 4:3 over to 16:9 if you look it's still 16:9 but the playback flag gets switched durring the conversion


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