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-   -   Intel 12x00 series Alder lake (http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=34052914)

badsykes Jul 21, 2021 02:39 AM

Intel 12x00 series Alder lake
 
https://wccftech.com/intel-core-i9-1...9-5950x-rumor/


this is really underwhelming. :hmm:

Nunz Jul 21, 2021 04:55 AM

How is 25% faster in single-core with little to no optimizations on an ES chip underwhelming? That's literally the opposite of underwhelming, if the rumor is true. I don't really know any games using 32threads.. I'd rather have faster IPC and clocks than extra cores that aren't used. That fat chunk of L3 Cache is hot as **** too :drool:

Also remember that this is with, afaik, JEDEC DDR5 which is slow with insanely high timings. We haven't seen any DDR5 released yet that's even running XMP.

badsykes Jul 21, 2021 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nunz (Post 1338296474)
How is 25% faster in single-core with little to no optimizations on an ES chip underwhelming? That's literally the opposite of underwhelming, if the rumor is true. I don't really know any games using 32threads.. I'd rather have faster IPC and clocks than extra cores that aren't used. That fat chunk of L3 Cache is hot as **** too :drool:

Also remember that this is with, afaik, JEDEC DDR5 which is slow with insanely high timings. We haven't seen any DDR5 released yet that's even running XMP.

Zen 4 is rumored about 40% ...Also the 12900k frequency is 5.3 ghz for some cores.Is pushed very high imo.
Also with all this marketing about DDR5 i expected something more .... intersting
I mean AMD made something intersting with Zen 3 3D and it gets 15% more performance in games.

Nunz Jul 21, 2021 05:26 AM

How do you know what clock speed is pushed hard on an architecture that is brand new on a node that hasn't been used on desktop yet?

Again, this is a sample that was used with extremely slow DDR5 as there is ZERO on the market beyond JEDEC speeds. JEDEC is always slow .. hell, JEDEC just moved to 3200Mhz on DDR4 not very long ago.

The performance considering the tons of limitations and lack of optimizations is very impressive. It will only go up from there, especially, I suspect, when we have memory that isn't running slow as piss. We'll see some XMP kits once the platform releases.

There's no real world use data of Zen3 3D getting 15% improvement yet. It's rumored.

KAC Jul 21, 2021 05:53 AM

Best way to participate in badsykes threads is to ignore them.

andino Jul 21, 2021 06:00 AM

25% over the AMD 5950 in single thread is nice. That might get some people to purchase. That is, if there are any available. I wonder what the benchmarks look like with all cores. My guess is that AMD will still win that race. Because if not, well, Intel would have leaked that benchmark out too...

Nunz Jul 21, 2021 06:07 AM

12900K showing 11% faster Multi-Core than the 5950X in Cinebench.

These aren't Intel leaks. These are the result of the douche that "acquired" very early samples and sold them for thousands of dollars. Many of the people who bought them have been struggling to find motherboards, though. You can buy JEDEC DDR5 right now if you wanted to.

badsykes Jul 21, 2021 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nunz (Post 1338296477)
How do you know what clock speed is pushed hard on an architecture that is brand new on a node that hasn't been used on desktop yet?

Again, this is a sample that was used with extremely slow DDR5 as there is ZERO on the market beyond JEDEC speeds. JEDEC is always slow .. hell, JEDEC just moved to 3200Mhz on DDR4 not very long ago.

The performance considering the tons of limitations and lack of optimizations is very impressive. It will only go up from there, especially, I suspect, when we have memory that isn't running slow as piss. We'll see some XMP kits once the platform releases.

There's no real world use data of Zen3 3D getting 15% improvement yet. It's rumored.


Ok ... you are right...There are still too many variables for Alder Lake.
So we do like this.Promise me if the 12900k will be underwhelming then send a pic of your epeen to KAC.He will not ignore that for sure.

CurrentlyPissed Jul 21, 2021 09:44 AM

I'm assuming Alder Lake will not work on Z590 boards.

pax Jul 21, 2021 10:16 AM

We can assume that with pcie5, ddr5, new node, new bigger socket that ADL will beat Zen3 easily.

I think amd can close the breach somewhat with its stacked L3 but if its still on am4 I doubt it. ADL will win by 10% ST...

But who knows what other things amd will do with zen3+ maybe they'll put it on 6nm for some higher clocks.

badsykes Jul 21, 2021 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pax (Post 1338296517)
We can assume that with pcie5, ddr5, new node, new bigger socket that ADL will beat Zen3 easily.

I think amd can close the breach somewhat with its stacked L3 but if its still on am4 I doubt it. ADL will win by 10% ST...

But who knows what other things amd will do with zen3+ maybe they'll put it on 6nm for some higher clocks.

The thing is the end user ends up swallow all the hassle by buying a very new platform (DDR5) with more money and bugs for only rummored 25% ? I remember my Zen 1 experience from 2017.

I do feel AMD is in a more advantageous position because you have matured AM4 that is mature enough and with ZEN 3 3d may close the performance gap that ADL has.

Nunz Jul 21, 2021 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CurrentlyPissed (Post 1338296503)
I'm assuming Alder Lake will not work on Z590 boards.

Of course not. It's a completely new platform with PCIE5.0, DDR5 Memory, and a larger socket (LGA1700).

As for swallowing costs of a new platform... So what? It's cutting edge technology with the fastest memory on the market and I'd hope the fastest performing platform as well.

AMD still has issues with USB and AGESA on their "matured" AM4 platform.. so..??

I guarantee the Zen3 with 3D Cache is going to get absolutely ****ing stomped by AlderLake after a couple updates and optimizations.

badsykes Jul 21, 2021 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nunz (Post 1338296522)
Of course not. It's a completely new platform with PCIE5.0, DDR5 Memory, and a larger socket (LGA1700).

As for swallowing costs of a new platform... So what? It's cutting edge technology with the fastest memory on the market and I'd hope the fastest performing platform as well.

AMD still has issues with USB and AGESA on their "matured" AM4 platform.. so..??

I guarantee the Zen3 with 3D Cache is going to get absolutely ****ing stomped by AlderLake after a couple updates and optimizations.

Yes but you comparing an old platform with DDR4 vs the fancy new platform DDR5 and ADL completly new architecture.If Zen 3 3d is 10% less performance than ADL then it will be kinda underwelming.
Also DDR5 even with loose timings will be premium for early adopters.

Nunz Jul 21, 2021 02:16 PM

You're assuming the best case scenario for AMD, while also assuming the worst for Intel. I'm not going to argue with you man.

DDR5 will be expensive but high end DDR4 is absurdly priced as well .. so what's the difference. Again, you want cutting edge technology, then you gotta pay for it. If you don't, then stick to DDR4 and your old platform.

badsykes Jul 21, 2021 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nunz (Post 1338296544)
You're assuming the best case scenario for AMD, while also assuming the worst for Intel. I'm not going to argue with you man.

DDR5 will be expensive but high end DDR4 is absurdly priced as well .. so what's the difference. Again, you want cutting edge technology, then you gotta pay for it. If you don't, then stick to DDR4 and your old platform.


I want something more than 25% for a fancy DDR5 + new ground up architecture + PCIE5.0.I don't care if it's AMD (AM5) or Intel (LGA1700)
let's see how it goes.

Hapatingjaky Jul 21, 2021 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badsykes (Post 1338296547)
I want something more than 25% for a fancy DDR5 + new ground up architecture + PCIE5.0.I don't care if it's AMD or Intel.
let's see how it goes.

OK see you in 10 years.

badsykes Jul 21, 2021 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hapatingjaky (Post 1338296573)
OK see you in 10 years.

So i ask too much.I feel i am being milked for money.

badsykes Jul 22, 2021 12:58 AM


demo Jul 22, 2021 01:10 AM

Interesting design, though I'm not sold on it for desktop. Hopefully the scheduler is good enough to properly differentiate between big and little cores for games.

And then in the age of DX12 multithread optimised games, how much will performance be hindered compared to AMD when using all cores?

Nunz Jul 22, 2021 01:20 AM

If it's beating the 5950X in Cinebench in the worst setup possible (worse than ES chip, JEDEC memory, cheap B600 motherboard that is also an ES) I would say the thread performance is more than capable. That's driven mainly by IPC and clocks, but I would expect more cores/threads with the successor to AlderLake, which will be compatible with the AlderLake boards.

I'm excited as hell for this chipset. I think it's going to completely thrash Ryzen in gaming. I'm hoping we have some decent DDR5 to buy, though. I've yet to see any XMP kits yet, but apparently G.Skill said they will have better than JEDEC kits ready by AlderLake release.

demo Jul 22, 2021 01:23 AM

Yeh I think it'll be good, but just curious about all threaded performance in games and frame times with the speed disparity between cores. The slow cores actually look pretty fast anyway, on par with Skylake.

The i7 will probably be a good buy, you get 8 fast cores and 4 slow ones.

Nunz Jul 22, 2021 01:27 AM

Yeah. I'm curious if they'll be overclockable like the big cores. I think it could work great if the Windows scheduler can dedicate Windows processes to the small cores, while the big 16 threads focus on the game. If they can make Windows differentiate between the two, and basically never touch the big cores for Window processes, that would really negate this huge core count push.

You don't need much processor power to drive Windows, so you could keep them low power and clocked low, and then use the extra thermal headroom to smash voltage through those big puppies.

Hopefully we see this work well, and then they can very easily expand the setup with more cores/threads. I would expect the HEDT platform to be a complete monster.

demo Jul 22, 2021 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nunz (Post 1338296606)
If they can make Windows differentiate between the two, and basically never touch the big cores for Window processes, that would really negate this huge core count push.

You don't need much processor power to drive Windows, so you could keep them low power and clocked low, and then use the extra thermal headroom to smash voltage through those big puppies.

Yes exactly, these will heavily rely on the scheduler. But from what I understand the 5950x & 5900x do anyway - so it doesn't simultaneously use cores from different modules in games, to avoid cross CCX communication slow down. IIRC it even has a game mode, disabling half the cores/modules because it's faster than having the full chip unlocked. Perhaps ADL will have a similar option.

badsykes Jul 22, 2021 02:36 AM

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/al...(bigtime).html

After seeing the cinebench table against my own 1700 i am thinking it's a good upgrade.It is the first platform that has double the ST performance versus mine.In this case is worth considering even with the slow DDR5.
Mine has ST score of 378
ADL 12900 has 810.

The intersting aspect is rumored to support ddr4 so i don't have to be early adopter for slow and expensive ddr5

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/al...odes-confirmed

KAC Jul 22, 2021 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badsykes (Post 1338296592)
So i ask too much.I feel i am being milked for money.

You don’t pay any money. You are running a very old system. You only create threads to rile people up.

badsykes Jul 22, 2021 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KAC (Post 1338296617)
You don’t pay any money. You are running a very old system. You only create threads to rile people up.

hahahha :p:lol:
KAC look in the mirror and ask yourself about your upgrades behaviour patterns
We are opposites...
Maybe i will receive a 5900x for free from some people that upgrade for 5% or 10% more performance or not hitting 5ghz on all cores ... why not ? :D

On the serious note look at this:





With GPU prices and the fact that Cyberpunk is unfinished game is stopping me from upgrading...
Also if you don't buy a 3080, 3080ti / 3090ti you can't use the added CPU performance anyway.In my case i am running in circles and not buying anything.

demo Jul 22, 2021 05:43 AM

Cyberpunk is not a very good game bro. Plenty of good games run much better ;)

badsykes Jul 22, 2021 06:40 AM

Playing on 1080p with games like Cyberpunk will be another solution.

demo Jul 22, 2021 06:54 AM

Never.

Silent-Runner Jul 22, 2021 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badsykes (Post 1338296626)
Playing on 1080p with games like Cyberpunk will be another solution.



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