Top 10 Reasons Why You Shouldn't Upgrade to Vista

[1stFlight]

I'm in the mood to gripe soo...enjoy!

1. OpenGL based games run slower due to an M$ imposed wrapper that serves no purpose but to kill competition
2. Forced DRM - can anyone tell me, why they'd pay to reduce their systems capabilities?
3. Forced upgrade of our brand new LCD's to support HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DRM
4. Hardware accelerated desktop...okay, buy a copy of Windowblinds folks
5. IE 7 meet Firefox, Firefox beat the snot out of IE7, thanks
6. Parental controls - what, they couldn't get the concept of a truly separate home directories and user permission straight in XP??
7. Complete control of what hardware is usable under it, this can only stifle rapidly developing products and raise their costs
8. Have they finally gotten their equivalent of "su/sudo" to work right yet?
9. ECC "soft" requirement...what memory management sucks so bad under the NT kernel that they "need" ECC in order to stay running?
10. Sidebar - yeah I want to section off 2'' of my 19'' monitor for that

"Vista, now you'll go only where we want you to" - should be their new slogan.

</gripe>

EDIT: Okay here's 11 - DirectX 10, for a product built on the X86/AMD64 platforms don't insult our intelligence by telling us the DX10 couldn't be made for XP.

[jolle]

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

I'm in the mood to gripe soo...enjoy!

1. OpenGL based games run slower due to an M$ imposed wrapper that serves no purpose but to kill competition
2. Forced DRM - can anyone tell me, why they'd pay to reduce their systems capabilities?
3. Forced upgrade of our brand new LCD's to support HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DRM
4. Hardware accelerated desktop...okay, buy a copy of Windowblinds folks
5. IE 7 meet Firefox, Firefox beat the snot out of IE7, thanks
6. Parental controls - what, they couldn't get the concept of a truly separate home directories and user permission straight in XP??
7. Complete control of what hardware is usable under it, this can only stifle rapidly developing products and raise their costs
8. Have they finally gotten their equivalent of "su/sudo" to work right yet?
9. ECC "soft" requirement...what memory management sucks so bad under the NT kernel that they "need" ECC in order to stay running?
10. Sidebar - yeah I want to section off 2'' of my 19'' monitor for that

"Vista, now you'll go only where we want you to" - should be their new slogan.

</gripe>

EDIT: Okay here's 11 - DirectX 10, for a product built on the X86/AMD64 platforms don't insult our intelligence by telling us the DX10 couldn't be made for XP.

1) Not really, Windowed OpenGL run while the D3d accelerated desktop is in effect will take a penalty since it will use a wrapper to emulate OpenGL.
Fullscreen OpenGL should remain uneffected from what I´ve heard.
3dsMax, softimage and other tools using windowed OpenGL should disable the desktop acceleration.
Well, granted I havent missunderstood it that is.

2)the DRM support allows users to play back BluRay/HDHVD, any OS lacking support will not allow playback of said media.
Blame hollywood and the big companies for this insane copyprotection scheme.
MacOSX prolly already supports DRM.

3) Yeah, but that is due to the DRM protection on new media, not due to VISTA, you wont even be able to WATCH that sort of stuff in XP or Linux.
You buy a HDDVD Player you STILL need a HDCP compatible display for it.

4) If HW acceleration is a reason NOT to buy Vista, then it should be a reason to NOT buy Windowsblinds aswell shouldnt it? and MacOSX which has been OpenGL accelerated for a while now.

5) Sure FF rocks, but what does it have to do with the OS? IE on XP isnt any better so should I migrate back to Win98 cause of that? cant I just keep using FF on Vista?

6) another improvement over XP then, how is that a reason not to upgrade?

7) Please elaborate, havent heard anything about that.
How does MS control the hardware in Vista, more then with XP?

8) no idea about that

9) Never heard, elaborate if you want.

10) Prolly optional, I cant see myself using it..
not even using XPs themes either..

DX10 prolly wont ever work on XP due to the ties with the changes in Vistas Driver model, which seems rather extensive from reading about it over at Xbit I think it was.
D3D9L seems to be DX9 but with some adaptations to tie closer in with the improvements in the Driver model..
goal seems to be more autonomy for the graphics hardware, less dependancy and load on the CPU from the driver, better memory manangement etc, from what Ive read atleast..
my knowledge on the topic is scetchy at best tho..

Dunno if Vista will turn out any good, hopefully something useful stems from it..
Atleast Palladium/TCPA is all but gone, reduced to 2 optional functions.
Question is if it worth a upgrade when it hits.. review will prolly tell I guess..

I have never seen so much opposition to an OS before. Wow

[1stFlight]

Originally Posted by jolle

1) Not really, Windowed OpenGL run while the D3d accelerated desktop is in effect will take a penalty since it will use a wrapper to emulate OpenGL.
Fullscreen OpenGL should remain uneffected from what I´ve heard.
3dsMax, softimage and other tools using windowed OpenGL should disable the desktop acceleration.
Well, granted I havent missunderstood it that is.

According to this article it doesn't matter how you run your system, anything OpenGL related is going to run sub-par to DirectX as Microsoft has decided to kill off it's product's competitors

2)the DRM support allows users to play back BluRay/HDHVD, any OS lacking support will not allow playback of said media.
Blame hollywood and the big companies for this insane copyprotection scheme.
MacOSX prolly already supports DRM.

Oh I blame them too. The point is, DRM limits a system, limits what your money paid for, as such there's little to no reason to pay more money to get less. By not purchasing Vista, it sends the message that these sort of limits will not be tolerated.

3) Yeah, but that is due to the DRM protection on new media, not due to VISTA, you wont even be able to WATCH that sort of stuff in XP or Linux.
You buy a HDDVD Player you STILL need a HDCP compatible display for it.

Yup see above

4) If HW acceleration is a reason NOT to buy Vista, then it should be a reason to NOT buy Windowsblinds aswell shouldnt it? and MacOSX which has been OpenGL accelerated for a while now.

I was saying that as it's not all that compelling

5) Sure FF rocks, but what does it have to do with the OS? IE on XP isnt any better so should I migrate back to Win98 cause of that? cant I just keep using FF on Vista?

Of course, again its just not compelling.

6) another improvement over XP then, how is that a reason not to upgrade?

It's sad to see this "feature" finally implemented after the Unix folks have been enjoying it for....decades.

7) Please elaborate, havent heard anything about that.
How does MS control the hardware in Vista, more then with XP?

Sure it was front page news a few weeks ago http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33843943

8) no idea about that

The "Run As" feature in 2000/XP has never worked completely right. This one was more of a rant than anything else

9) Never heard, elaborate if you want.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/02/06/ec...sta/index.html

10) Prolly optional, I cant see myself using it..
not even using XPs themes either..

I hope so.

DX10 prolly wont ever work on XP due to the ties with the changes in Vistas Driver model, which seems rather extensive from reading about it over at Xbit I think it was.
D3D9L seems to be DX9 but with some adaptations to tie closer in with the improvements in the Driver model..
goal seems to be more autonomy for the graphics hardware, less dependancy and load on the CPU from the driver, better memory manangement etc, from what Ive read atleast..
my knowledge on the topic is scetchy at best tho..

Dunno if Vista will turn out any good, hopefully something useful stems from it..
Atleast Palladium/TCPA is all but gone, reduced to 2 optional functions.
Question is if it worth a upgrade when it hits.. review will prolly tell I guess..

I'm just waiting to see if DX10's feature set can be reimplimented in Cedega, if they can get it to run under Linux, there's no excuse why M$ couldn't run it under XP.

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

1. OpenGL based games run slower due to an M$ imposed wrapper that serves no purpose but to kill competition

This is false. The Direct3D wrapper is a replacement for Windows' software OpenGL ICD. OpenGL ICD's provided by hardware ISV's will function as they always have.

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

2. Forced DRM - can anyone tell me, why they'd pay to reduce their systems capabilities?

No on is forcing you to use DRM.

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

3. Forced upgrade of our brand new LCD's to support HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DRM

No one is forcing you to upgrade your display equipment.

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

4. Hardware accelerated desktop...okay, buy a copy of Windowblinds folks

I would hardly consider this a Top 10 Reason not to upgrade to Vista.

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

5. IE 7 meet Firefox, Firefox beat the snot out of IE7, thanks

Ditto.

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

6. Parental controls - what, they couldn't get the concept of a truly separate home directories and user permission straight in XP??

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

7. Complete control of what hardware is usable under it, this can only stifle rapidly developing products and raise their costs

While I think this is a legitimate beef, hardware developers do have an option of disabling this during the development process. Also, this should encourage more driver developers to use user-mode drivers rather than kernel-mode.

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

8. Have they finally gotten their equivalent of "su/sudo" to work right yet?

There's nothing wrong with Run As, nor has there ever been as long as I've been using an NT-class OS.

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

9. ECC "soft" requirement...what memory management sucks so bad under the NT kernel that they "need" ECC in order to stay running?

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

10. Sidebar - yeah I want to section off 2'' of my 19'' monitor for that

So disable it.

[jolle]

DRM, while being a negative force indeed, is prolly not something I would hold against Vista.
We consumers could boycot HDDVD players, HDCP compliant hardware and such to show our opposition, but that is likely not going to happen.

The openGL issue, as read in that link, appears to me related to running OpenGL ontop of D3d accelerated draw surfaces or somesuch, by enabling that they emulate OpenGL with a D3D wrapper, which ofcource has negative impact.
Disabling the acceleration should allow full scale OpenGL acceleration on windowed applications, as Qouted:

Microsoft's current plan for OpenGL on Windows Vista is to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. If an OpenGL ICD is run - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience.
In practice this means for OpenGL under Aeroglass:

If the aeroglass desktop offers performance improvements, then it would be a shame to have to disable it (tho many 3d apps offers both OpenGL and D3d aswell as software rendering), but if its only "bling" its no biggie, as I said Im not using XPs Themes either.

The new drivermodel has some bits about better handling of multiple applications accessing the GPU and sharing it, maybe that only works on the same API or somesuch, wrapping OpenGL with D3d would make sense in that case.
It cant really be TOO restrictive or they will alienate the entire pro 3d graphics market on all levels where tools are using OpenGL.
There could be something in that MS wants OpenGL out, but they are driving the nails in pretty hard on the gaming market already by pushing the XNA tools on devs for crossplatform development for PC/Xbox, which is alot more lucrative then Windows/linux/MacOSX OpenGL gamedevelopment.
They dont really HAVE to reduce the OGL support in the OS willingly.

The MS signed driver thing can have its negative impact on things.
Its a bit like "DELL BIOSes", protecting the user by padding the edges, so to speak hehe.
Ofcource it could make things troublesome for Rivatuner and Deamontools who rely on Drivers to be installed on the system, and its a bit bad if that choice is taken away from the user entirely.

ECC RAM could be nice if the entire market went over to it, as it is now you pay more for slightly slower modules and you dont get much out of it since our systems rarely get into that kind of situation where ECC saves you (plus alot of boards, and prolly most A64 integrated controllers, dont support it).
Sounds like that might change tho.. could be both good and bad I guess, but they cant really demand that everyone goes and buys a "out of the mainstream" type of memory, so either they dont, or ECC becomes the desktop standard and prices and availability would have to follow.. I guess..


In the end Vista is going to have its good sides, and its bad sides, like any OS at launch, hopefully the good will outweigh the bad, Im mainly relived that TCPA was all but removed.
There are negative aspects, but I get the feeling that everything has gotten blown out of proportions by sensationalistic journalism..
The OpenGL thing was pretty big, but I think a bit missinterpreted, aswell as all the recommended system requirements, you wont need a supercomputer, but enabling all bells and whistles will increase the load for sure.
Ofcource I dont know for sure either, Im just another guesser on a forum hehe.

[acidosmosis]

Hm, I nominate this for my pointless thread of the month award.

As far as Microsoft "forcing" you to do these things. In 99% of cases they just can not force you to do a whole lot. That would just create more lawsuits.

You can't read things and take them so literally. Microsoft's site says that they are requiring kernel-mode software to have a digital signature on x64 based sytems. That doesn't mean Microsoft is going to require digital signatures for every bit of software you use, nor does it mean that software can't just opt out of that whole thing even if Microsoft does say it "requires it". Again, you can't take these things so literally.

Sure, the desktop may require a lot better system than XP, but it's pretty obvious they will allow you to turn the eyecandy down, so who cares. They did it in XP obviously they will do it in Vista.

[jimmt]

I really don't plan on going to Vista. I have been running Linux since 97 and if applications no longer run on XP when Vista comes out (doubtfull) then I wil finally make the switch to linux 100% or buy a nice new Mac. been flirting with Mac's on and off since Sys 7.

Jim

[argasek]

About IE7: I would rather say switching to Vista will bring more good than bad, at least from webdesigners' point of view. Web developing for Internet Explorer <= 6.0 plain sucks ass. (Go and read positioniseverything.net or www.quirksmode.org if You don't know what am I talkin' about). IE7beta2 has many of the mentioned bugs fixed.

Edit: the main reason form me not to switch to Vista is:
- it costs, I'm not going to pay for the crap
- at the time of writing there's no driver for my HPT370 ATA controller (neighter built-in, nor on HighPoint's site). No driver = no ATA100 = no use.

[jolle]

My main gripe with IE from a webdesign point of view is the lack of PNG24 support.. no transparancy support in IE for some reason.
compare my Avatar in IE and FF for example..

[Kombatant]

Originally Posted by 1stFlight

I'm in the mood to gripe soo...enjoy!

1. OpenGL based games run slower due to an M$ imposed wrapper that serves no purpose but to kill competition.

Nah; don't believe everything you read. Besides, MS never had OpenGL drivers/wrappers, it was the vendor drivers that did (and will do) all the work.

2. Forced DRM - can anyone tell me, why they'd pay to reduce their systems capabilities?

That's not MS's fault, and besides, DRM is too broad a term; even XP has some DRM features (Windows Media Player comes to mind)

3. Forced upgrade of our brand new LCD's to support HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DRM

So you if you play those on XP you think you won't need those? What's Vista got to do with it?

4. Hardware accelerated desktop...okay, buy a copy of Windowblinds folks

You've never run a Vista build, have you... no relation between the two whatsoever (apart from the transparent borders)

5. IE 7 meet Firefox, Firefox beat the snot out of IE7, thanks

IE7 will be available for WinXP as well (in fact, I am using it to post atm) so this has nothing to do with Vista.

6. Parental controls - what, they couldn't get the concept of a truly separate home directories and user permission straight in XP??

Parental controls are needed; you will need them in a few years in light of recent events So these are a good thing and you should be glad they are implemented.

7. Complete control of what hardware is usable under it, this can only stifle rapidly developing products and raise their costs

Eh? Vista is no different than XP as far as hardware is concerned - it will support everything under the sun. That's of the main reasons MS Operating systems are successful anyway.

8. Have they finally gotten their equivalent of "su/sudo" to work right yet?

Yes.

9. ECC "soft" requirement...what memory management sucks so bad under the NT kernel that they "need" ECC in order to stay running?

I won't answer that, google it, you'll find a good explanation easily

10. Sidebar - yeah I want to section off 2'' of my 19'' monitor for that

Nobody will upgrade to Vista for the sidebar man; that's like telling me you switched to Windows because of Solitaire

"Vista, now you'll go only where we want you to" - should be their new slogan.

</gripe>

EDIT: Okay here's 11 - DirectX 10, for a product built on the X86/AMD64 platforms don't insult our intelligence by telling us the DX10 couldn't be made for XP.

You know that, architecturally, some things are fundamentally different under the hood with Vista, right? Lots of legacy stuff are thrown away. Besides, find me an official statement by MS which says that DX 10 will not become available for XP and we can continue discussing this.


Pwntkthx

[Belarnion]

10:
Come on. You know you love the sidebar.


I really think a sidebar helps doing "windows stuff" more efficiently. I just hope the Vista sidebar will be customizeable.

[argasek]

Originally Posted by jolle

My main gripe with IE from a webdesign point of view is the lack of PNG24 support.. no transparancy support in IE for some reason.
compare my Avatar in IE and FF for example..

IE7beta2 supports PNG w/ alpha blending . However it still renders PNG with Gamma correction information incorretly. Moreover, no popular browser at the moment supports PNG with ICC embedded information (Color Space).

[Ghost_™]

VISTA SUCKS nuf said
Stop bashing flight, imo he is totally right and if you wanna go spend your money on an OS that will destroy all your download freedom with that DRM crap then go ahead. I for one am sticking to XP as i see absolutely no reason to upgrade to Vista.

[therock16]

Originally Posted by Belarnion

10:
Come on. You know you love the sidebar.


I really think a sidebar helps doing "windows stuff" more efficiently. I just hope the Vista sidebar will be customizeable.

wow that is unbelievably pointless

[Belarnion]

It's not pointless to me. My only wish is that it should be able to "do" more. I use the RSS feed, look at clock and watch the weather forecast every day. Sure I can do it with other programS. It's just easier with just the sidebar. Finally put some of the 2Mpixels to better use.

Let's not forget the (to me) nice compilation of system resource usage. I used to check mem usage, free HDD space and CPU usage before i picked up the sidebar. Now I just have to take a quick glance at it to see all the info. Wish i found a sidebar plugin to show GPU/CPU frequencies, memory latencies and speed and so on. It doesn't eat loads of resources either. 7MB RAM and close to 0 CPU cycles.

On the other hand: I would never use it with a screen res of 1280x1024 or less. It would simply eat too much precious desktop space.

[acidosmosis]

Originally Posted by Ghost_™

VISTA SUCKS nuf said
Stop bashing flight, imo he is totally right and if you wanna go spend your money on an OS that will destroy all your download freedom with that DRM crap then go ahead. I for one am sticking to XP as i see absolutely no reason to upgrade to Vista.

Uh that sounded completely retarded.

I wish people wouldn't talk **** about software when they don't know the first thing about computers.

Edit: Eventually you would have no choice but to upgrade to XP or use Linux (in several years) but hehe... yea. Good luck with that.

[jolle]

Originally Posted by Ghost_™

VISTA SUCKS nuf said
Stop bashing flight, imo he is totally right and if you wanna go spend your money on an OS that will destroy all your download freedom with that DRM crap then go ahead. I for one am sticking to XP as i see absolutely no reason to upgrade to Vista.

Noone is bashing anyone, its a perfectly civil discussion on Vista, there are contradictions to some claims tho.
DRM protected media wont play on XP at all, so what difference would it make for your so called "download freedom"?
You can stick to XP, I might aswell, but unlike you Im not making that decision NOW without ANY facts.. howabout waiting for some reviews, or better yet, e released version of the acctual OS..

[Spoon83]

1) Emulation will only take place when using OpenGL with Areo Glass in a window. Nothing else is in emulation unless something has changed recently.

4) Sorry but Window Blinds still uses the 2D hardware to render the desktop and is held back by GDI. Vista will be able to use your 3D features (like shaders) to render the desktop very quickly. No more 30% CPU usage when dragging windows around. If you think this is like Window Blinds you've really missed something

9) You really, really, don't know what you're talking about

10) As mentioned already, disable it (that may even end up being default). Pretty silly complaint.

PS, using a $ for MS doesn't increase post-coolness at all. Infact, it looks really childish.

[Lighthammer]

Originally Posted by Kombatant

Eh? Vista is no different than XP as far as hardware is concerned - it will support everything under the sun. That's of the main reasons MS Operating systems are successful anyway.

LMFAO!! I'm sorry, I almost fell off my chair cause I laughed so hard after reading that comment!

Does that statement qualify as an oxymoron!?!

[1madman1]

Originally Posted by Kombatant

Eh? Vista is no different than XP as far as hardware is concerned - it will support everything under the sun. That's of the main reasons MS Operating systems are successful anyway.

Vista requires that drivers be WHQLed. That pretty much screws over my current hardware as both my video and sound drivers are not WHQL and there are no WHQL drivers currently avalible that would work in my configuration.
It also intoduces a new driver model and I'm sure there is loads of hardware out there that wont have new drivers for it, especally with the WHQL requirement (video capture cards come to mind).

[jolle]

Well it was no different with XP, lots of older stuff lacked drivers, some had 2k drivers you could use, some didnt.. was one big driver craze and companies started putting "XP compatible" on their stuff to show "WE HAVE THE DRIVERS!!!" hehe..
I think older videocards can run with XP drivers tho, but they are ofcource missing out on the improvments of the new driver model.
Dont know exactly to what extent, but I think there is a "XP driver mode" and a "Vista Driver mode", atleast for video cards.
Using Aero Glass, you will NEED a WDDM driver, it wont work on the XPDM drivers, but instead fall back on the old desktop

[Crisler]

WOW MS finally fixes a lot of the bugs in XP and folks are complaining about it?

The WQHL driver limit is GREAT! It means better compatability right out of the gate and also that agem developers know the drivers are working as they expect them to.

IE7 is a major change over IE^ in how the program is accessed. By keeping it out of the core they are making it a ton more secure and thus better for us all. Vista will be a lot harder to virus infect in general under the new kernal system it is running.

Hardware acceleration for the desktop is a bad thing? Are you NUTS!? The hardware acceleration just means the desktop will respond quicker, DUH this is a good thing.

I also cannot believe anyone is griping over parental controls unless you are a child. It allows parents to control the time the kids spend on the internet, and the computer. It makes it easy to limit program access without all the need to be a system admin. There is zero bad with this.

Finally the whiole sidebar argument, if you dont like it turn it off, DUH!!!

This thread should be renamed, 10 reasons to WHINE about Vista for no good reason..

[Treeckcold57]

I heard Microsoft said, those ATI or Nvidia DirectX9.0 128MB or more video memory card can running fine on full AeroGlass effect. If Another all cards had only DirectX8.1, 8.0, and 7.0. Then it should disable AeroGlass effect for better performance. You guys, you shouldn't upgrade DirectX10 card. lol

[Belarnion]

One does not upgrade to DirectX 10 for the sake of the OS.
Hopefully several games using DX10 will pop up next year. DX10 is a great step in the right direction to make PC's über gaming consoles. Hopefully.

I would have to say most of you do not know what you are talking about REALLY!!!

I am running VISTA! and all the drivers for XP worked fine for me. I am even running a Avermedia 303 studio TV card with no problems USB sound and integrated sound. At the monment I would say it is at the point where Linux is, and soon will be a complete OS. I have developed many applications for both gnome and KDE both commercial and freeware so I would say I know abit more the the linux bashes that just toy around. Guys dont just write stuff for the sake of it, you look like idiots.

[VW_Factor]

Originally Posted by Treeckcold57

I heard Microsoft said, those ATI or Nvidia DirectX9.0 128MB or more video memory card can running fine on full AeroGlass effect. If Another all cards had only DirectX8.1, 8.0, and 7.0. Then it should disable AeroGlass effect for better performance. You guys, you shouldn't upgrade DirectX10 card. lol

[caveman-jim]

Originally Posted by Treeckcold57

I heard Microsoft said, those ATI or Nvidia DirectX9.0 128MB or more video memory card can running fine on full AeroGlass effect. If Another all cards had only DirectX8.1, 8.0, and 7.0. Then it should disable AeroGlass effect for better performance. You guys, you shouldn't upgrade DirectX10 card. lol

Right, but Dx10 will be for games and 3dapps, not accelerated desktop effects. So, yes, get dx10 card when you want to play dx10 games/run dx10 apps, not before.

[Explicative]

I don't need ten reasons not to upgrade; I need ten reasons to upgrade, and so far I don't have one. From what I've read about features being in, then out, then to be released after the Vista release (e.g., WinFS, Monad, rumors of .NET deprecation) it just sounds like a mess. Frankly I could probably still be getting by on Windows 2000, even for games.

[_-F10-_]

i remember when ME preleased and everyone OMFG it will suck donkey nards!!! (and it did, very much so). But then XP preleased and everyone was OMFG XP will suck donkey nards! 98SE FTW!

point is, yes you will probably eventually have to upgrade to vista but its gonna suck, like all the other MS OSes, until SP1 releases. No OS is perfect this is true, but whining about how it will 'suck' right now when you cant even see the true potential until about a year after release is an exercise in futility at best.

also, DRM has already been implemented somewhat into XP as was said above. Yeah it will suck but for as many copyright programs out there, there is always someone on the other end trying to figure out how to crack the **** out of it. eventually it will be as ez to get around as CSS on a regular DVD.

sidenote: aol/time warner should buy the rights to Starforce and put it on teh aol starty disks. that way we can finally filter out all the dummies for good from the compugene pool