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Old Nov 23, 2021, 09:15 AM   #7681
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I think they mean relatively immune as we dont get deathly ill from the other 4 families of covids, covid-19 being a fifth, that we catch colds from. Unless one is very frail.

In 5-10 years maybe we will probably see the same thing with covid-19 where annual shots might not be necessary anymore.
But form what I've read that relative immunity drops way down after 6 months and does not work on variants, hence my common cold/flu analogy.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 10:02 AM   #7682
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 10:23 AM   #7683
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I can read it now, how odd.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 10:25 AM   #7684
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The major issue with natural immunity vs. vaccine mandates is that one can be harder to prove than the other. The shot gives you a little white card with the dates that can be shown off and documented, what is the best way to show natural immunities? I don't think that those pushing for shots, shots shots! are doing so because they disagree with the science, I think it is more logistics and process oriented. There are those who lie about the shot when the card exists, how many will just simply say "I had covid" and be done with it? If the goal is to get to a point where herd immunity seems feasible, we cannot remove human nature from our decisions. In a perfect world people would act with others in mind, but as the last 19 months have shown we are not in a perfect world.

To me there is nuance in following the science and attempting to create a policy that works within the confines or reality, where human nature, logistics, and ultimate goals are still realized. What would the testing regiment of those with natural antibodies look like? How much burden would it place on an overly taxed system?


have not seen that in 6 months
it's here somewhere but ...........

and if anyone asked to see it i would tell them to blow me
i'm just not doing the whole papers please gestapo thing .
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 10:28 AM   #7685
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There's also claims by virologists that those with the vaccine immunities, are in greater danger in breakthrough cases from the variants due to the vaccine overpowering their natural immunity and not allowing for the body to properly adapt to fight the variant.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 10:55 AM   #7686
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But form what I've read that relative immunity drops way down after 6 months and does not work on variants, hence my common cold/flu analogy.
Its still early days and I expect a few years of vaccines and inevitable infections to build up long term sufficiently resilient immunity...

Talking to my sis about that as shes on the provincial vaccine team and we can expect reformulated vaccines targeting variants over a few years at least.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 02:35 PM   #7687
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The major issue with natural immunity vs. vaccine mandates is that one can be harder to prove than the other. The shot gives you a little white card with the dates that can be shown off and documented, what is the best way to show natural immunities? I don't think that those pushing for shots, shots shots! are doing so because they disagree with the science, I think it is more logistics and process oriented. There are those who lie about the shot when the card exists, how many will just simply say "I had covid" and be done with it? If the goal is to get to a point where herd immunity seems feasible, we cannot remove human nature from our decisions. In a perfect world people would act with others in mind, but as the last 19 months have shown we are not in a perfect world.

To me there is nuance in following the science and attempting to create a policy that works within the confines or reality, where human nature, logistics, and ultimate goals are still realized. What would the testing regiment of those with natural antibodies look like? How much burden would it place on an overly taxed system?
Sounds like a bureaucratic issue more than science-related. I'd argue that no medical procedure should be mandated unless absolutely necessary for public health. If natural immunity is more robust and longer lasting than via vaccination, then it follows that it should be accepted as equal in terms of vaccine mandates. That is, of course, that the ultimate goal is to seek maximal immunity in the herd rather than to chase vaccination numbers alone.

There are several ways to confirm that people have natural immunity. The simplest would be to look at records indicating a previous positive COVID test. Recovery from a hospital stay may be an even better indicator, though there are others such as measuring antibodies. And, note that the UK and other nations do consider acquired natural immunity to be equivalent, so this shows that it is certainly possible for these bureaucracies to keep such records, suggesting it should also be possible in North America.

Further, strong immunity is not guaranteed by vaccination. Some people have poor antibody response, even after several doses. In such cases, vaccinated people will present a higher risk to the general public than those with robust natural immunity, yet such people will be allowed in restricted places where they are a threat to public health in spite of this, while people with natural immunity, who present a lower actual risk to public health, will not. This outcome is counter to the public good.

Again, as I've made clear previously, I'm not arguing in favor of people getting COVID-19 to acquire natural immunity as that strategy is far too risky. What I am saying is that, if the science supports it, we ought to regard natural immunity as equivalent to that provided by vaccination, and thus not mandate unnecessary vaccinations, especially if that entails potentially losing one's livelihood.

Another reason for me making this argument here is to show that there is room for nuance in our attitudes about vaccination. I am generally pro-vaccine, and have been vaccinated myself. However, many seem to view anyone who isn't vaccinated as a moral failure, and I don't think that is fair in all cases. I am making this case to show that it is possible to be pro-vaccine, but with some limitations based upon the science as well as respect for individual rights and freedoms.

Vaccines do come with risks and individuals should be allowed to determine if they want to take that risk unless the science says there is absolutely no other way. Mandates are a huge authoritarian stick and should only be applied when absolutely necessary. Recent science seems to show that acquired natural immunity to SARS-CoV-2 is at least equal to immunity via vaccination, so it does seem as if mandatory vaccination is a step too far into authoritarianism when it comes to those with existing natural immunity.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 02:57 PM   #7688
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have not seen that in 6 months
it's here somewhere but ...........

and if anyone asked to see it i would tell them to blow me
i'm just not doing the whole papers please gestapo thing .
We have a vaccine passport system where I live. I've only used it once when I met some friends for a drink. The server asked to see our passports and ID, which we provided, but she did not actually check the validity of our passports with the online verification app. As such, I joked with her that we could be inside a restricted space using forged documentation...
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 03:24 PM   #7689
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They really need to stop with this mandatory vax crap. Work just sent an email saying mandatory testing if you're not. Good employees are going to quit over it too most likely.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 03:34 PM   #7690
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They really need to stop with this mandatory vax crap. Work just sent an email saying mandatory testing if you're not. Good employees are going to quit over it too most likely.
Their choice, it's a free country. Don't wanna get vaccinated then move along.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 03:45 PM   #7691
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Their choice, it's a free country. Don't wanna get vaccinated then move along.
Hmmm...

Let's step back a moment and look at our rights and freedoms. Is the freedom to find a new job the kind of freedom that we ought to celebrate? Shouldn't such policies be based on tangible risk? And what if the individual in question already has robust natural immunity? Is it fair to fire someone who presents no more risk to the public than a vaccinated person, solely because they are unvaccinated? "Because it's policy" has never been a valid moral argument.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 03:51 PM   #7692
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Hmmm...

Let's step back a moment and look at our rights and freedoms. Is the freedom to find a new job the kind of freedom that we ought to celebrate? Shouldn't such policies be based on tangible risk? And what if the individual in question already has robust natural immunity? Is it fair to fire someone who presents no more risk to the public than a vaccinated person, solely because they are unvaccinated? "Because it's policy" has never been a valid moral argument.
Tell that to my employer. I work in a "right to work" State which means I can get fired any time for any reason. They had instituted a vaccine mandate in the Spring so we're all vaccinated and no one quit over it.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 04:33 PM   #7693
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Their choice, it's a free country. Don't wanna get vaccinated then move along.
Overreach IMO. I mean I had to provide proof of my vaccination today, or face weekly testing. It's getting old fast.

What's next? They going to make me upload every time I get a booster? Enough is enough.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 04:39 PM   #7694
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Overreach IMO. I mean I had to provide proof of my vaccination today, or face weekly testing. It's getting old fast.

What's next? They going to make me upload every time I get a booster? Enough is enough.
You work for gov or private co? Their job, their rules, ya know? As I said, my entire office did this 6 months ago because if not well we knew where the door was. NC is also a right to work State so your choices are clear, comply or walk.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 04:48 PM   #7695
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My employer requires COVID vaccination if I wish to enter the office; all I had to do is upload a proof of vaccination once and I was all set.
I feel for people who have to show an ID every time they have to buy alcohol at the store, reminds of nazi Germany!
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 04:51 PM   #7696
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You work for gov or private co? Their job, their rules, ya know? As I said, my entire office did this 6 months ago because if not well we knew where the door was. NC is also a right to work State so your choices are clear, comply or walk.
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My employer requires COVID vaccination; all I had to do is upload a proof of vaccination once and I was all set.
I feel for people who have to show an ID every time they have to buy alcohol at the store, reminds of nazi Germany!
Yes, but where does this stop? That's my issue. I get the why, but I question the long term impact.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 04:52 PM   #7697
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Their choice, it's a free country. Don't wanna get vaccinated then move along.
they got a right to hire a lawyer and sue also for a mandate that looks like it will be shot down in court and is so far

but I am so glad i am self employed in az
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 04:55 PM   #7698
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Yes, but where does this stop? That's my issue. I get the why, but I question the long term impact.
I don't know when but I know I'm sick of COVID, COVID protocols and Covidiots.
I also know that just because I'm sick of it all, COVID just won't pick up and leave.
It's exhausting
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 04:56 PM   #7699
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they got a right to hire a lawyer and sue also for a mandate that looks like it will be shot down in court and is so far
That's for gov Bill, not private entities.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 04:57 PM   #7700
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I don't know when but I know I'm sick of COVID, COVID protocols and Covidiots.
I also know that just because I'm sick of it all, COVID just won't pick up and leave.
It's exhausting
You and me both brother.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 04:57 PM   #7701
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Yes, but where does this stop? That's my issue. I get the why, but I question the long term impact.
When we all get vaccinated and maybe..... maybe Covid is no longer an issue?

Listen, we may have to live with this forever, seasonal Covid shots, like the flu.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 05:01 PM   #7702
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Yes, but where does this stop? That's my issue. I get the why, but I question the long term impact.
same

i was in places in the Navy that had a soldier with a machine gun on almost every street corner and was IDed everywhere ......... it was creepy .
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 05:18 PM   #7703
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That's for gov Bill, not private entities.
Seeing how no one is stopping this PnR train...

No, there's an OSHA mandate that applies to private entities over 100 people that is being held up in the courts. I'm dubious the court will let that fly but it was an ask by big business for political cover to try to prevent delta from tanking the econ (many of them, notably the airlines already had vax mandates announced so no skin off their backs).
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 05:43 PM   #7704
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Seeing how no one is stopping this PnR train...
I feel in hint in that somewhere......
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 06:01 PM   #7705
Greasy
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Not sure what is PR about this. I simply asked, "where does this end?"
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 06:06 PM   #7706
SD-[Inc]
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Is there such a thing as "herd immunity" with Covid though? There's no herd immunity against the common cold and Covid is mutating the same way.

What am I missing?
Common cold is caused by over 500 different types of viruses. COVID is 1 type of virus.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 06:14 PM   #7707
dodger
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I feel in hint in that somewhere......
I just find policy prescription talk can get PnR in a hurry. 12bass is throwing around authoritarianism which is PnR for me plus we're now talking about court cases now. So since we're already here I'll just say I find it interesting that the countries with more authoritarian control of their citizens medical data has given them the most freedom from the vax if the already got infected.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 06:49 PM   #7708
acroig
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Originally Posted by dodger View Post
I just find policy prescription talk can get PnR in a hurry. 12bass is throwing around authoritarianism which is PnR for me plus we're now talking about court cases now. So since we're already here I'll just say I find it interesting that the countries with more authoritarian control of their citizens medical data has given them the most freedom from the vax if the already got infected.
I blame Bill.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 07:04 PM   #7709
bill dennison
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I blame Bill.

your as bad as the little girl next door when i was 4
used to pee her pants and then blame me
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 08:24 PM   #7710
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your as bad as the little girl next door when i was 4
used to pee her pants and then blame me


You mean You're!
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