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Old Nov 23, 2021, 08:37 PM   #7711
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12Bass
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I just find policy prescription talk can get PnR in a hurry. 12bass is throwing around authoritarianism which is PnR for me plus we're now talking about court cases now. So since we're already here I'll just say I find it interesting that the countries with more authoritarian control of their citizens medical data has given them the most freedom from the vax if the already got infected.
Well, in a way, everything is political, if it involves groups of people. However, the issues I've been talking about don't involve political parties per se, but rather scientific, medical, ethical, and legal matters which are involved with company and public policy on many levels (given that vaccine mandates can come from businesses, schools, city councils, hospitals, care homes, states, provinces, and federal governments). My elementary school principal was an authoritarian, but he wasn't a political figure from what I recall.

And, again, I've brought up some of the points above in part to show that the issues go deeper than politics and the political binary that many seem to hold these days and I've deliberately steered away from discussing any direct political connections. My hope is that people might look at these issues more objectively if they remove their political lenses for a moment.
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Old Nov 23, 2021, 09:19 PM   #7712
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Originally Posted by 12Bass View Post
Well, in a way, everything is political, if it involves groups of people. However, the issues I've been talking about don't involve political parties per se, but rather scientific, medical, ethical, and legal matters which are involved with company and public policy on many levels (given that vaccine mandates can come from businesses, schools, city councils, hospitals, care homes, states, provinces, and federal governments). My elementary school principal was an authoritarian, but he wasn't a political figure from what I recall.

And, again, I've brought up some of the points above in part to show that the issues go deeper than politics and the political binary that many seem to hold these days and I've deliberately steered away from discussing any direct political connections. My hope is that people might look at these issues more objectively if they remove their political lenses for a moment.
Didn't think I would ever find myself saying this based on my P&R experience here.... I agree with you.
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 08:06 AM   #7713
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Originally Posted by bill dennison View Post
your as bad as the little girl next door when i was 4
used to pee her pants and then blame me
ROFL!
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 08:07 AM   #7714
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Didn't think I would ever find myself saying this based on my P&R experience here.... I agree with you.
And this is a great point, lot's of the animosity and needless argumentation going on in our country is just to "own" the other side.

As a great man once said "divided we fall".
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 09:36 AM   #7715
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Originally Posted by acroig View Post
And this is a great point, lot's of the animosity and needless argumentation going on in our country is just to "own" the other side.

As a great man once said "divided we fall".
US response to pandemic has always been one of the worst of any civilized nation. It’s because we are broken. Not sure silence on this subject will fix anything. At the same time not sure arguing has any impacts against the mammoth wall of disinformation being disseminated today. Keeping us broken is the whole point of those spewing the disinformation. There isn’t any real signs of repair coming either. If nearly a million dead people doesn’t sway opinion, not sure what anything will.
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 09:38 AM   #7716
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Originally Posted by SD-[Inc] View Post
Keeping us broken is the whole point of those spewing the disinformation. There isn’t any real signs of repair coming either. If nearly a million dead people doesn’t sway opinion, not sure what anything will.
Excellent point, our true enemies are taking us out from within.
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 10:01 AM   #7717
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Originally Posted by SD-[Inc] View Post
US response to pandemic has always been one of the worst of any civilized nation. It’s because we are broken. Not sure silence on this subject will fix anything. At the same time not sure arguing has any impacts against the mammoth wall of disinformation being disseminated today. Keeping us broken is the whole point of those spewing the disinformation. There isn’t any real signs of repair coming either. If nearly a million dead people doesn’t sway opinion, not sure what anything will.
I don’t know if you can specifically compare the US response with other countries. Every country has strengths and weaknesses that would make it easier or harder to deal with the pandemic. For instance, something as basic and obvious as being an island nation, or having easily accessible health care, etc. But I think most people would’ve expected the US to do better
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 10:23 AM   #7718
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have not seen that in 6 months
it's here somewhere but ...........

and if anyone asked to see it i would tell them to blow me
i'm just not doing the whole papers please gestapo thing .
FFS, you show your insurance card at the doctor's office, you show your drivers license when a cop stops you, you show your certificates to work on HVAC, you post your contracting license, you provide work permits on big jobs, but my mistake, you don't do the papers please thing...

The faux bravado should be embarrassing but begs the question does one ever tire of performative bullshit?
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 10:54 AM   #7719
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Originally Posted by Jay20016 View Post
FFS, you show your insurance card at the doctor's office, you show your drivers license when a cop stops you, you show your certificates to work on HVAC, you post your contracting license, you provide work permits on big jobs, but my mistake, you don't do the papers please thing...

The faux bravado should be embarrassing but begs the question does one ever tire of performative bullshit?
i do

i go into th VA and give them the last 4 of my SS number i have no card

got two contracting licenses have not showen them in 20+ years
you do have to post your contracting license in adds but i have not ever had to advertise in 40 years

work permits on big jobs not my job that is the general contractors job not a subs

but as for this no i am no showing anyone not a cop papers .
and i will tell them to kiss my ass
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 11:43 AM   #7720
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I've been sick since Friday and stayed home. Since we have the big extended 50-person thanksgiving dinner here Saturday, I went in for a test. Even though I have taste and smell, and no fever, I'm positive.

Dodged a bullet.

Sorta
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 12:10 PM   #7721
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I've been sick since Friday and stayed home. Since we have the big extended 50-person thanksgiving dinner here Saturday, I went in for a test. Even though I have taste and smell, and no fever, I'm positive.

Dodged a bullet.

Sorta
When I had covid, the fever and loss of taste/smell didn't happen until my second week of being sick. The first week everything just kind of slowly creeped in and gradually got worse.
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 12:30 PM   #7722
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I've been sick since Friday and stayed home. Since we have the big extended 50-person thanksgiving dinner here Saturday, I went in for a test. Even though I have taste and smell, and no fever, I'm positive.

Dodged a bullet.

Sorta
My old boss got COVID early last week and he just says he feels like he has a cold. Same for another friend of mine who got it this past weekend.

Feel better
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 12:53 PM   #7723
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Originally Posted by JZL View Post
I've been sick since Friday and stayed home. Since we have the big extended 50-person thanksgiving dinner here Saturday, I went in for a test. Even though I have taste and smell, and no fever, I'm positive.

Dodged a bullet.

Sorta
Here is hoping your symptoms stay mild and no one else in the party unknowingly causes a big problem.
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 05:34 PM   #7724
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Originally Posted by SD-[Inc] View Post
Here is hoping your symptoms stay mild and no one else in the party unknowingly causes a big problem.
Thanks, everybody. The event has been moved to a niece's house and wifey and I won't be going. All for the best; there's going to be a ton of young kids there.

fwiw, Moderna vax in the spring. Had not gotten the booster yet, so that's my bad. I was going to get it next week.

Weirdly, my eyes look like I went to a Snoop Dog birthday party.
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Old Nov 24, 2021, 05:52 PM   #7725
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Doesnt sound like you got the pneumonia?... even with a booster Id keep an eye on symptoms to be safe. Vaccine is immensely helpful but not silver bullet. At least not yet.
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 05:10 AM   #7726
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I feel for people who have to show an ID every time they have to buy alcohol at the store, reminds of nazi Germany!
wooah, really?
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 05:52 AM   #7727
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I'll accept the comparison with Nazi Germany when the first antivaxxer concentration camp opens for business...
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 05:54 AM   #7728
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wooah, really?
Some people in this thread try way too ****ing hard to be funny or clown others for their opinions.
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 08:36 AM   #7729
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Some people in this thread try way too ****ing hard to be funny or clown others for their opinions.
Hyperbole passed off as an opinion is a shield for the continuation of ignorance.
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 09:24 AM   #7730
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Tell that to my employer.
I get your point there and in fact agree with their right to do as they please to an extent just because they are a private business. Their company, their rules.

Doesn't mean we have to agree with their decisions of course.
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Originally Posted by 12Bass View Post
Hmmm...
Completely agree with this whole post of yours. They can do as they please, and my company chose to follow CDC recommendations as is their prerogative. I personally think it's a heavy-handed approach but that is just my opinion and little worker bee me doesn't really matter.
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Originally Posted by acroig View Post
Listen, we may have to live with this forever, seasonal Covid shots, like the flu.
Outside of health care flu shots aren't typically required in most companies. This is definitely something new. I understand you are probably in favor of those requirements unless I have you figured wrong.

Been a while since I posted here in this thread, we lost Grandma to covid related penumonia July before last. Now, both of my parents who refuse vaccines are in the hospital with this and were admitted yesterday. My sister has already had it and gained natural immunity from it since she was not vaccinated. It was the worst flu like experience she has ever had from what she told me.

My opinion hasn't changed for the most part. I am completely against mandating this. I don't agree with employers requiring it. I don't believe it meets the traditional definition of a vaccine, and the timing of the changes of those definitions seems suspicious as it may have been done so that we can include the covid 'vaccine' in that definition. Reality is, this is more like an experimental drug than anything else.

That all said, I'm disappointed my parents did not get the drug. They are in the age group that could be in real trouble from this and now look at them. In the hospital totally miserable sick as hell. We're all worried about them. While I have not taken the drug yet I now have scheduled my first dose of moderna on dec 2nd. I go into it knowing what to expect, this is not going to keep me from getting sick. It will keep me from going to the hosptial and dieing. So, off I go. I'll have to risk the long term side effects including any unknowns at this point.
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 09:32 AM   #7731
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wooah, really?
I was mocking those who compare producing an Id to Nazi Germany...
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 09:34 AM   #7732
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My opinion hasn't changed for the most part. I am completely against mandating this. I don't agree with employers requiring it. I don't believe it meets the traditional definition of a vaccine, and the timing of the changes of those definitions seems suspicious as it may have been done so that we can include the covid 'vaccine' in that definition. Reality is, this is more like an experimental drug than anything else.
The reality is, you're wrong.

While our understanding of the immune system is far from complete, there is a reason flu vaccines were annual - strains change and immunity wanes.

It's also the reason we don't have an immunization for the common cold. It seems that for some particular families of viruses, our immune system simply has a poorer memory (not to mention the fact that there are clear financial incentives for pharmaceutical companies to target some diseases over others - although no one is hiding secret cures to make more money else where - it's just that profit potential drives investment). Trying to extrapolate out the frequency for boosters for a brand new vaccine for a relatively newly identified virus (although, the reason we were able to get a COVID vaccine so quickly was due to work on the original SARS virus as well as the MERS virus) is going to be largely educated guessing followed up by regular data collection to better our understanding.

It's only thanks to prior work from SARS/MERS that we have a vaccine that is safe, effective, and well tested. The fact that immunity wanes isn't completely unexpected, but that is not the fault of the vaccine itself. It's a limitation of where our medical understanding of the immune system and these viruses stand. I'm sure it will improve in the future, but claiming the vaccine is not a vaccine and an experimental drug is plain misinformation - and it promotes ignorance and folks dying unnecessarily.
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 09:37 AM   #7733
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The reality is, you're wrong.
No.

The definition of vaccine was recently changed by the authorities such that this drug is included in that definition. Previously, it would not have met the definition of vaccine that had been relatively long standing.

It's an experimental drug.
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 09:37 AM   #7734
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Outside of health care flu shots aren't typically required in most companies. This is definitely something new. I understand you are probably in favor of those requirements unless I have you figured wrong.
Well the flu does not kill like Covid does so there's that.

I am in favor of vaccination, it's how we beat polio, measles, rubella and so on. Don't understand the resistance to vaccination on political grounds.
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 09:39 AM   #7735
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It's an experimental drug.
Covid vaccines experimental? After FDA approval? You have science to back up that statement?
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 09:41 AM   #7736
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Covid vaccines experimental? After FDA approval? You have science to back up that statement?
Emergency approval for something that was relatively recently created and for which we have no actual long term data compared to say something like the polio vaccine.

I mean how many times do I have to explain this? They changed the definition of vaccine to fit this drug. At least, that is what the timing implies here.

What's in a name though? I realize you guys are hyper sensitive to this and are going to launch an attack because you insist on calling it a vaccine now that they've changed the definition to fit, but it doesn't change the reality. It's a disappointment in that it doesn't prevent you from catching this or getting sick. That said, I'm still going to get it since I would prefer to have what little protection I can get at this point, regardless of what they are calling it now.
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 09:49 AM   #7737
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No.

The definition of vaccine was recently changed by the authorities such that this drug is included in that definition. Previously, it would not have met the definition of vaccine that had been relatively long standing.

It's an experimental drug.
Well, continue to live in your own bubble. I'm sure you'll easily find "information" and people to reinforce your world view and make you feel good about yourself.

Vaccines are not a silver bullet and never were. They were effective in preventing infection not simply through personal immunity, but through the fact that so many folks would have immunity that disease would not spread easily and, therefore, folks would not get sick. This never meant that you take a vaccine and you're 100% immune for forever. That's the stuff of fantasies and fairy tales.

The problem we currently have is that we're in the middle of pandemic and the disease is highly contagious and spreading throughout our communities. There is no chance that any vaccine would be anywhere near 100% effective for all persons in a situation like this. It's not how vaccines work or have ever worked. Vaccines simply introduce a pathogen (either a chunk of it or a live, attenuated version) so that your immune system has a chance to fight it on unfair terms to build up immunity (i.e., identify and imprint the molecular structure that your body should recognize as the pathogen) so if you're exposed in the future, you're body is prepared to fight off that pathogen to limit or prevent infection. Preventing infection limits the reproduction of the pathogen and less new pathogen limits spread. This understanding has not changed in a very long time. It's simply the facts about how all of this works.

To believe otherwise is your choice, but, again with employer mandates, it's all profit motive. Employers don't want sick or dead employees. They want to keep their doors opened to make money. Immunizing the staff makes sense. Also dead and sick people (and people who don't want to be dead or sick) don't tend to buy as much, so keeping patrons of your business protected from your otherwise pathogen-spreading employees makes sense. Businesses like vaccine mandates and being able to deflect blame to the government makes them happy as they can have their cake and eat it too. They keep folks healthy, make money, and blame the gov't for policies that they're implementing that keeps the business afloat.

No conspiracy theories. No experimental drugs. It's just the happy accident that we can get immunized so that economies can keep chugging along.
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 09:52 AM   #7738
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Emergency approval for something that was relatively recently created and for which we have no actual long term data compared to say something like the polio vaccine.

I mean how many times do I have to explain this? They changed the definition of vaccine to fit this drug. At least, that is what the timing implies here.

What's in a name though? I realize you guys are hyper sensitive to this and are going to launch an attack because you insist on calling it a vaccine now that they've changed the definition to fit, but it doesn't change the reality. It's a disappointment in that it doesn't prevent you from catching this or getting sick. That said, I'm still going to get it since I would prefer to have what little protection I can get at this point, regardless of what they are calling it now.
Wait, I asked a question and that's an attack? And just because you give an explanation that fits your narrative does not make your statement valid.

Regardless, I'm not having a silly argument on Thanksgiving but I'd suggest you look in the mirror regarding hyper sensitivity.

Have a good day.
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 09:56 AM   #7739
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Well, continue to live in your own bubble. I'm sure you'll easily find "information" and people to reinforce your world view and make you feel good about yourself.
LOL okay guy.

I don't disagree with most of your post either btw. What we've seen here is the definition of vaccine change to fit the drug we have. If you want to deny that then by all means continue right along.

Doesn't change the facts. It's the best we have right now and is all we have. Considering the lack of efficacy in preventing any symptoms or spread vs. traditional vaccines for things like polio, it's a disappointment.

I'm still going to get it because I'd prefer to do whatever I can at this point to help reduce symptoms if I end up getting this.
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Old Nov 25, 2021, 10:01 AM   #7740
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Wait, I asked a question and that's an attack? And just because you give an explanation that fits your narrative does not make your statement valid.

Regardless, I'm not having a silly argument on Thanksgiving but I'd suggest you look in the mirror regarding hyper sensitivity.

Have a good day.
It's easy to misconstrue skepticism and criticism as an attack and coming from a position of defense in this thread where I'm essentially outnumbered, perhaps I was a little overboard in my suggestion there.

Have a good thanksgiving too btw.
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