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Old Dec 17, 2021, 06:37 AM   #7981
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Pr3tty F1y
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Expecting there to be a political agenda behind most such claims. And, if this virus is so damn "special" that is must have been man-made, why is it also found in deer populations along with zoo animals? That sounds like something natural evolution would do.

Currently, the best answer is "we just don't know"... and keep looking, while focusing on developing a more permanent vaccine rather than finding a scapegoat to blame (motivated by racism/nationalism/etc...).
My thought is that it could have leaked from a lab or it could have transmitted from animals to human naturally. However, lab or not, I see it's transmission as inevitable. I don't believe for a second that this was some "gain of function" super virus. If it was being analyzed in a lab, it would have been from a naturally occurring sample. With humans continuing to encroach on animal habitats, this virus would have eventually transmitted to us regardless of the initial circumstances.

People hear "lab" and immediately think lab created, but there have been no information or data provided that would demonstrate that is the case.

However, we, as a species, are great at "othering" people when it comes down to not wanting to accept blame ourselves for being selfish, anti-vaxx, anti-mask, etc. Plus, you are 100% spot on about the political angle - idiot politicians don't want the blame for their anti-science polices that pander to the dumbest common denominator - so find someone/something else to blame so that the jackass masses don't see man behind the curtain telling you not to get vaccinated but also being first in line for themselves/their families to get vaccinated
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Old Dec 17, 2021, 07:22 AM   #7982
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Seeing more headlines today about some experts suggesting the lab leak is the most probable cause. Will see if it gains traction this time or not.
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Oh no Im not going there again.
Yeah no, none of us are, we're not doing "batshit" crazy conspiracy theories anymore.

See what I did there?
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Old Dec 17, 2021, 07:39 AM   #7983
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Old Dec 17, 2021, 07:42 AM   #7984
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Leave it to this bastard virus to bring out its most transmissible variant right during the Christmas holiday.
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Old Dec 17, 2021, 07:50 AM   #7985
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Leave it to this bastard virus to bring out its most transmissible variant right during the Christmas holiday.
Gaia wants us GONE!!

Can't say I blame her.
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Old Dec 17, 2021, 09:33 AM   #7986
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Yeah no, none of us are, we're not doing "batshit" crazy conspiracy theories anymore.

See what I did there?



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Old Dec 17, 2021, 10:48 AM   #7987
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Scheduled my Moderna booster for Dec 27th...
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Old Dec 17, 2021, 11:02 AM   #7988
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People hear "lab" and immediately think lab created, but there have been no information or data provided that would demonstrate that is the case.
Apparently that's one of the current claims though. That it's an extraordinary cooincidence that Covid has the furin cleavage site, when the Wuhan lab was experimenting with adding that same feature to other SARS viruses. There's some suggestion that there may have been some genetic alteration, then an accidental outbreak, before the super-spreader event in the nearby market. I guess we'll have to wait and see if more compelling evidence comes out someday.
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Old Dec 17, 2021, 11:40 AM   #7989
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Scheduled my Moderna booster for Dec 27th...
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Old Dec 18, 2021, 09:43 AM   #7990
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Omicron, if really is milder, sounds like good news actually.

A girl I know had all covid symptoms in the middle of the delta wave, but still went to work in the mall, packaging and selling food. Close contact with 100s of people daily, didn't want reduced pay for a week.

My wife works in multiple schools, in one of those, during a conference, a principal openly mocked her (and few others) for wearing a mask, case were 5 digits at the time already and growing.

I know doctors who privately speak against vaccination.

Many people will not vaccinate, care, it's just not threatening enough. So a milder variant completly taking over, and becoming a baseline for further mutations (going for transmisibility at the cost of virulence) might be the only way it ends.
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Old Dec 18, 2021, 10:23 AM   #7991
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Many people will not vaccinate, care, it's just not threatening enough. So a milder variant completly taking over, and becoming a baseline for further mutations (going for transmisibility at the cost of virulence) might be the only way it ends.
A low-severity & high-transmissibility variant basically works like a vaccine, imo.
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Old Dec 18, 2021, 10:42 AM   #7992
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Old Dec 18, 2021, 12:14 PM   #7993
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A low-severity & high-transmissibility variant basically works like a vaccine, imo.
Let’s hope. We will find out either way very soon.
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Old Dec 18, 2021, 12:53 PM   #7994
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But unlike the vaccine relative low severity and high transmissibility allows for a massive increase in the reservoir of the virus. That poses risks for more vaccine and immune evading variants and a longer pandemic.
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Old Dec 18, 2021, 03:10 PM   #7995
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But unlike the vaccine relative low severity and high transmissibility allows for a massive increase in the reservoir of the virus. That poses risks for more vaccine and immune evading variants and a longer pandemic.
True. But this cycle seems like the only one that will actually end the pandemic. Only when the virus mutates to a more benign state will this thing actually end. We had our chance. But, humanity failed that test.
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 04:04 AM   #7996
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... oh FFS. Mild covid is not ok. It allows for a far great chance of variants and this taking longer to end. Plus COVID long is no joke. You might not die, but suffering for who knows how long is it ok... Losing the plot people.

Also absolutely no reason further variants can't be far more deadly... Wow... Just ****ing wow.
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 06:59 AM   #7997
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... oh FFS. Mild covid is not ok. It allows for a far great chance of variants and this taking longer to end. Plus COVID long is no joke. You might not die, but suffering for who knows how long is it ok... Losing the plot people.

Also absolutely no reason further variants can't be far more deadly... Wow... Just ****ing wow.
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 07:13 AM   #7998
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 07:29 AM   #7999
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... oh FFS. Mild covid is not ok. It allows for a far great chance of variants and this taking longer to end. Plus COVID long is no joke. You might not die, but suffering for who knows how long is it ok... Losing the plot people.

Also absolutely no reason further variants can't be far more deadly... Wow... Just ****ing wow.
It's never going to ****ing end. You don't get that yet?

For any highly contagious disease, you're never stamping it out. The world is too connected today. Deer have it! There's a reservoir that will never be vaccinated, and they don't give a damn about quarantine and masking rules. There will be further variants forever. This dream of stamping it out wholesale was wishful thinking, really... and probably promoted to incentivize people to get vaccinated and give them hope, but in reality, it was never going to happen. Even if the US had 100% vaccination rates it can mutate in other countries, wildlife populations, and be reimported exactly the same as if it was a local mutation.

As was made clear in some early articles about covid, there are only so many ways the latching proteins can mutate and still be functional. Omicron partially sidestepped our vaccines by adopting some cold/flu features (the theory is that someone was dually infected with Covid and the flu at the same time, and the viruses could swap genetic material to try out new strategies.) It appears to have become less deadly as a result.

As far as propagation goes, whichever versions are the most infectious and allow the most spread will become the dominant strain. There is a reason why the original strain has vanished... Alpha and Delta squeezed it out by being more transmissible. and Alphas has prertty much dropped off the radar too. Killing people off quickly harms transmission, which is why a virus that can kill in 24 hours will never be a pandemic concern. Less severe but highly contagious is the evolutionary destiny of this thing. We're getting there, both by building up immunities and by the virus optimizing itself. It's going to take a while though.


To be clear, I'm not advocating ANYONE skipping vaccines for any reason. Reducing death rates is good. Reducing transmissibility is good, not because I think we can make it peter-out, but because it's a huge inconvenience on everyone even if it's mild.

But the reality is that some people will never be vaccinated despite our desires. They've had every opportunity in the first world at this point, so if it hasn't happened it isn't going to. The eventuality that the virus becomes something we can live with is a good thing. Vaccinated people will be better off either way as your body is already prepped for something and less likely to get a long-covid scenario.
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 08:02 AM   #8000
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It was never going to go away completely. I don't know why anyone got so attached to that ridiculousness. I've said this from the beginning, check my post history.

Regardless of vaccines, masks, mandates, etc - this was always going to be the end result. The only thing that would change is how many bodies are stacked up on the way.
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 08:29 AM   #8001
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The point has been not to overwhelm the medical care facilities. We have hospitals at capacity mostly due to unvaccinated people. That means that other medical care cannot be given because beds are full of covid patients.



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Old Dec 19, 2021, 08:56 AM   #8002
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Whatever happened to the notion that mRNA vaccines can easily be adjusted to deal with variants? I haven't heard news about vaccine version 2 at all?
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 08:57 AM   #8003
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FWIW, there seems to have been armies of straw men created in response to the pandemic, and so many bad faith arguments by antivaxxers/antimaskers that I can't count them all. From my perspective, pandemics are novel, so procedures and expectations require constant reevaluation; I never expected it to be "one and done!". When people make snarky remarks about how the vaccines obviously don't work because we now require boosters, I don't take them or their words seriously, because I know they don't come from a place of intellectual honesty or understanding.
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 09:45 AM   #8004
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Originally Posted by SD-[Inc] View Post
Whatever happened to the notion that mRNA vaccines can easily be adjusted to deal with variants? I haven't heard news about vaccine version 2 at all?
I could only find a company link which one needs to take with a huge grain of salt but I've heard it reported before elsewhere:

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-re...micron-variant

First batches of the Omicron-based vaccine can be produced and are planned to be ready for deliveries within 100 days, pending regulatory approval.

I think there's no more reporting done because the booster seems to be effective enough that there's no rush or need for a version 2. Things may change and I'm hoping they are continuing research in case Omicron isn't as mild as people thought. I'd like to see them do it as practice to using this tech for flu shots.
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 09:48 AM   #8005
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... oh FFS. Mild covid is not ok. It allows for a far great chance of variants and this taking longer to end. Plus COVID long is no joke. You might not die, but suffering for who knows how long is it ok... Losing the plot people.

Also absolutely no reason further variants can't be far more deadly... Wow... Just ****ing wow.
We need to keep developing new and better vaccines. It's not like the first Smallpox vaccine was perfect. Even once they developed the modern and portable Smallpox vaccine, it took 15-20 years to eradicate it. We'll never get rid of Covid. Previous infection might be as good as current vaccines (the data is still out and incomplete), but Omicron doesn't care about your recovery or your double dose if we're just talking about infection. I think we'll find that both prevent serious illness about the same, however there is a huge thing to consider about that statement. I would rather get vaccinated multiple times and then get infected because at least my immune system would have an instruction manual about what to do and what not to. It will notice the intruder sooner.

That said, I return to the need for updated and/or new vaccines. Just throwing antibodies from the original strain at new variants does work, but not as efficiently. It will take more time to have a good grasp on deeper immune response from vaccination, but it seems that at this point, vaccination is doing well at preventing hospitalization. I just wonder for how long without an update.
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 09:50 AM   #8006
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The point has been not to overwhelm the medical care facilities. We have hospitals at capacity mostly due to unvaccinated people. That means that other medical care cannot be given because beds are full of covid patients.



Vid courtesy of andino.
I'm not sure why you're quoting me since, like I said, the vaccines, masks, and mandates were only going to change how many people died - I'm assuming you quoted me on accident. This really has nothing to do, at all, with what I said.

My point is that vaccines, masks or mandates were never going to make COVID go away completely.. Ever. That entire notion was ****ing stupid and only the most naive of individuals thought that was possible. The only way that worked is if you had the vaccine ready in the first 30 days of it becoming widespread.. it took about a year.
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 09:54 AM   #8007
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Whatever happened to the notion that mRNA vaccines can easily be adjusted to deal with variants? I haven't heard news about vaccine version 2 at all?
Seen some reports on that and might take till next summer before they are in full production. Its why we need the 3 shots in what we have now. We mandated shots in some key workplaces here and under a month we hit virtually 100% of eligible vaccinated (save those with medical reasons). If they can mandate every workplace the vaccine regime will be over soon.
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 10:30 AM   #8008
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I'm not sure why you're quoting me since, like I said, the vaccines, masks, and mandates were only going to change how many people died - I'm assuming you quoted me on accident. This really has nothing to do, at all, with what I said.

My point is that vaccines, masks or mandates were never going to make COVID go away completely.. Ever. That entire notion was ****ing stupid and only the most naive of individuals thought that was possible. The only way that worked is if you had the vaccine ready in the first 30 days of it becoming widespread.. it took about a year.
That's what happens when I'm replying on my phone in the crapper. ,)

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Old Dec 19, 2021, 11:57 AM   #8009
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Whatever happened to the notion that mRNA vaccines can easily be adjusted to deal with variants? I haven't heard news about vaccine version 2 at all?
Easily yes, but still has to go through a modicum of testing before they can get approval to roll it out and no doubt have to tweak the manufacturing process.

If Omicron was completely ignoring current boosters, the FDA might roll the dice, but at this point it doesn't look like shirking testing is worth the risk.
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Old Dec 19, 2021, 05:04 PM   #8010
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Omicron infects and multiplies 70 times faster than the Delta in human bronchus, which may explain why Omicron may transmit faster. Omicron infection in the lung is significantly lower than the original SARS-CoV-2, which may be an indicator of lower disease severity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84XMFVcLScw

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