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Old Jun 4, 2002, 09:24 AM   #1
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puNani
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Unhappy How can we make ATi declare this problem as official..?

The problem I am reffering to is the Infinite Loop. This subject has been discussed many time here by many people, and no one seems to have a direct answer of what is causing it.

People have suggested it may resolve of:
* Tempature (not in my case)
* Faulty Card (At least 20 people in this forum have the problem - are all of their cards faulty?)
* Insufficient Voltage (again, not in my case, I got a 350w psu)
* Out of date [display drivers/ bios /via drivers] (got all the latest versions)
* Incompability with VIA based Motherbaords (could be in my case)

And perhaps some other suggestions which also does not apply to me and probably to other people.

If it really is an incompability issue with VIA based Motherboards, how can we test it for sure? ATi does not recognize the problem some of us are suffering from and we get a whole lot of frustration.

So I ask, what can we do?

(Also See: My Old IL Problem Thread )

What can we do?
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 09:56 AM   #2
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Default Re: How can we make ATi declare this problem as official..?

Can you reproduce the problem ?

I don't mean that it happens alot, but can you list some steps that will make it occur every time ?

I haven't experienced this problem but have read many others who have.

Just wondering if we can get a list of steps together to reproduce it, this would be the way to get ATI to look into it.
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 10:04 AM   #3
puNani
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Well, for me, it only happends in 3d software (games). In some games it happends constantly, and therfor I can't play them, such as Operation Flashpoint and Tribes 2 (I tried OpenGL and Direct3D - same results). In other games like Unreal Tournament or Counter-Strike it happends more moderatly, but usually after 10~50 min of gameplay suddenly, with no warning, no fps drops or anything, the game gets stuck. Not when there are a lot of people or explosions, when the card needs to work extra hard, but out of the blue, when nothing special is happening.

In newer games such as Jedi Knight 2 and AVP2 I did not experience any Infinite Loop lockups, though I havn't playied them that much.

Another thing I did not mention is that the minute the game is stuck, the image on the screen freezes, the NUMLOCK/SCROLLLOCK/CAPSLOCK keys do not respond, the sound/music of the game keeps repeating the last 3 seconds over and over again, for about a minute or less, and then the computer reboots itself. And if I try to move the mouse or click on a keyboard key the computer speaker (not the sound card speakers beep once. This beep is also heard when windows is loading and I move the mouse before all the system try icons have finished loading...
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 10:08 AM   #4
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Yep.. same problem as puNani has...
It always happen in 3D. Just play a game, and at random time it will lock up, in infinite loop (sound repeating). I have this problem both in WinME and WinXP with R8500 on Abit KR7 board.
I have 400W PSU, water cooling for CPU, and cas temp is few C over room temp (so no heat issues).
Prefious GF2 card worked superb, no problems at all.
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 10:33 AM   #5
friskyolive
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Default Re: How can we make ATi declare this problem as official..?

Quote:
Originally posted by puNani
The problem I am reffering to is the Infinite Loop. This subject has been discussed many time here by many people, and no one seems to have a direct answer of what is causing it.

People have suggested it may resolve of:
* Tempature (not in my case)
* Faulty Card (At least 20 people in this forum have the problem - are all of their cards faulty?)
* Insufficient Voltage (again, not in my case, I got a 350w psu)
* Out of date [display drivers/ bios /via drivers] (got all the latest versions)
* Incompability with VIA based Motherbaords (could be in my case)

And perhaps some other suggestions which also does not apply to me and probably to other people.

If it really is an incompability issue with VIA based Motherboards, how can we test it for sure? ATi does not recognize the problem some of us are suffering from and we get a whole lot of frustration.

So I ask, what can we do?

(Also See: My Old IL Problem Thread )

What can we do?
Do a search for psu's and you'll find that it doesnt matter if its 250 or 500 watts. Its the disproporionate voltage regulators that the motherboard does not recieve correctly therefore possibly affecting agp and may\will result in infinite loop. Motherboards with aggressive timings will effect cpu, ram, agp that may trigger this infinite loop as well, depending on type of ram (quality\generic). How you install your drivers, flash your motherboard bios and adding via drivers may be applicable. One must do research prior to jumping in to unfamiliar territory. O\cing is a huge factor without proper cooling, though you may not be able to acheive same performance as every piece of hardware is different. I wish it to be simple for everyone, but I guess thats why there are technitions and\or highly qualified people to alleviate these possible\probable issues.
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 10:58 AM   #6
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Read this: http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...eadid=33615307

That thread refers specifically to an issue with Gigabyte DDR motherboards. Gigabyte have acknowledged the problem and even released BIOS's for some mobos that include a "Radeon 8500 fix".

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Old Jun 4, 2002, 11:43 AM   #7
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You can't make ati say it's an official problem because it's not an ati problem. Infinite loop seems to be caused by 1) bad components; ram, psu, etc 2) Low voltages 3) Overclocking 4) Overheating (?)

I've only gotten the infinite loop screen once. I had overclocked my ram too high without enough voltage.

I'm afraid you're gonna have to look elsewhere in your system to solve this problem.
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 12:00 PM   #8
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About the new bios, the F6.. I have it, I installed it a couple of times, also installed previous once. All of them gave me the same results. I currently have the F6 (with the ATI RADEON 8500 patch) but I still get the lockups.

(2)I also increased the voltage by +10% and in the Gigabyte Hardware Health Utility all the voltages seems to be OK. (In my other thread (look in first post here) I also wrote the voltages and I asked if they're ok... so maybe you can help me there.

(4)The card is also not over heating, I checked it (even manually, I touched it).

(3) I did not overclock the card, and I even used some tweakers just to check and the card is @ 275/275mhz.

(1)About the components.. I do not know for sure, but if you look at my hardware, all the components are avarage quality and above.. and everything is new, no second hand or anything.
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 12:27 PM   #9
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TO ALL PEOPLE WHO THINK THIS PROBLEM IS SOLVABLE

PuNani, You have answered everyones questions regarding possible solutions ie: you said you dont overclock, you said temps are good etc etc....

Frisky Olive & Co, you are starting to sound like a broken record, why dont you understand that everything you pull out of the same bag has been tried. Can you at least point us in a different direction!? I am starting to find it rather insulting that after all of the posts ive explained my problem and countless other people, you guys still cant put 2 and 2 together.

Or is it that your afraid of actually admitting that you dont know what the problem is and that you cant offer any solutions. Its no big deal, its just that im VERY tired of hearing you guys cough out the same old suggests, I find it very condesending.

You cant just sit on your high horse in ignorance of a problem that you afraid to admit you dont really understand, and if these so call "technitions and\or highly qualified people" may be able to solve it then why havent they shared it with the rest of the world?

RoLo
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 12:37 PM   #10
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It's very hard to diagnose. My GF2 worked fine (cept for FS2002, occasional infinite loops), but my voltages are fine, my hardware is all high quality stuff (I yanked the Live and it still does it so the Live stays hehe). My system temps get on the toasty side, and even with added cooling on the card I still get the infinite loops, however by underclocking my card to 258/258 (ram can even be at 275 without probs, but I like synchronous clocks), the problem goes away completely. I still get pixel flashing, but I dunno how to fix it, and my current res/refresh ([email protected]), the prob basically disappears (occasionally, but like once every 15 minutes may I notice something. It's fixed enough for me hehe, and it's still alot faster than my GF2, so I feel like I've conquered it

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Old Jun 4, 2002, 01:14 PM   #11
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I have infinite loops also, first I bought the PowerColor Evil Master 2 275/275, and tried it in my old 440BX Aopen AX6BC, and I got Infinite loops but only with win98SE, with win2000 it worked fine but slow, in win98SE it only worked with the drivers that came with the card, then I changed my motherboard for a KT3 Ultra ARU, I have the same problem it didn´t change a bit, I also must say that I format my hard drive, and reisntalled everything (just in case) with the newest drivers, flash the motherboard bios, and yesterday I tried flashing the card bios and gues what??? nothing
I haven`t tried underclocking, but hey I bought the 275, I want 275

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Old Jun 4, 2002, 01:17 PM   #12
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Exactly 258mhz, you say? I will try that. I hope it'll make the infinite loops stop. It really drives me crazy.

Usually I would be furious that I have to downclock a hardware peice.. I paid good money and deserve to get the most out of it, but at this current stage, after trying so many things.. I just want it to work. I don't want to waste anymore time on this problem if it isn't neccesery.

Thanks man.

Any other suggestions?
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 01:34 PM   #13
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I dont know why but it seems for most people with this same problem, downclocking to 250/250 helps alleviate the strain (well thats the clock i use) but you will probably find that it still locks up sometimes, so no the problem is not fixed and yes you should be able get 275 if youve paid for the retial version, not the goddam LE

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Old Jun 4, 2002, 01:58 PM   #14
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Default Bad Cards!!!

Someone asked, "Does everyone having this problem have a bad card?"

Very possible! Read this thread, especially the post by Chuki, who reports setting up 50+ systems using the R8500.

Rolo, did you ever return your card for a different one? Why not try it?

rasta
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 02:08 PM   #15
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Well, I had the infinite loop until last week, but since I put my SBLive! on another IRQ number than my R8500, well, no more problem with my computer!!! I am so glad...

Maybe it's that, but it's true I don't have a VIA motherboard but an Asus A7A266 motherboard... maybe you should consider to buy this one, very stable and flexible...

Have a nice day!

P.S.: Asustek has even done a patch for their motherboard or BIOS, can't remember to correct all the problems related to ATI cards configured as an AGP... I don't know if VIA did the same stuff?
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 02:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by KingRoLo
TO ALL PEOPLE WHO THINK THIS PROBLEM IS SOLVABLE

PuNani, You have answered everyones questions regarding possible solutions ie: you said you dont overclock, you said temps are good etc etc....

Frisky Olive & Co, you are starting to sound like a broken record, why dont you understand that everything you pull out of the same bag has been tried. Can you at least point us in a different direction!? I am starting to find it rather insulting that after all of the posts ive explained my problem and countless other people, you guys still cant put 2 and 2 together.

Or is it that your afraid of actually admitting that you dont know what the problem is and that you cant offer any solutions. Its no big deal, its just that im VERY tired of hearing you guys cough out the same old suggests, I find it very condesending.

You cant just sit on your high horse in ignorance of a problem that you afraid to admit you dont really understand, and if these so call "technitions and\or highly qualified people" may be able to solve it then why havent they shared it with the rest of the world?

RoLo
Another possibility is to change agp driving control in which I had hyperlinked that may offer something. I am just trying to find possible solutions as Ive searched the internet for you guys out of my time. I kept on getting infinite loops in ghost recon that no longer happen as I followed my own instructions and the help of 9031 drivers, but, I believe this infinite loop was the result of frenetically o\cing for the most part... I am definetly not on my high horse, I cant even standup Like Rasta says, RMA it. Instead of complaining and wining, I suggest you do the same, search, phone, replace and remedy..
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Old Jun 4, 2002, 03:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by friskyolive
Instead of complaining and wining, I suggest you do the same, search, phone, replace and remedy..
Ive got every right to complain and whine escpecially when you dont read my posts. In my posts it will say that YES I HAVE RETURNED THE CARD (plus i know it works coz i tried it at work in the P4 1.6). And Rasta YES I HAVE PLAYED CHANGED THE DRIVING CONTROL, They have been changed to FF & CC (which according to tech support/forum mod guy at www.overclockers.co.uk are the most stable settings for the 8KHA+) I have mentioned these points on various occassions, and i know youve read them before.

and as for:

search - search for what?
phone - currently in conversation with overclockers.co.uk
replace - there's not much more to replace
remedy - still waiting for one

Also, you managed to solve infinite loops on Ghost Recon, big deal, thats one game, This problem manifests itself in every game.

btw. i do appreciate your help but i dont think this will work until i replace the 8KHA+ (even then ill be very sceptical)

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Old Jun 4, 2002, 04:02 PM   #18
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Just to be clear... This is in no way an ATI problem!

I used to get the infinite loop error with my GF2-GTS, and alot of folks with nVidia cards are reporting the same problem!

Check some other boards.... it is not video card specific!
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Old Jun 5, 2002, 08:21 AM   #19
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Quote:
Any other suggestions?
Perhaps something to try: disable AGP texture acceleration. On my system (Win98) I did this through DXDiag. It caused no noticeable loss in performance (for the games I play anyway), but allowed me to use my Radeon 8500 LE at 270/270 without infinite loops; otherwise I was limited to 260/260.

My experience with infinite loops is less extreme than for many: I bought an LE card (accidentally actually), modified the voltages and flashed with the retail bios, and fully expected to be using clock speeds of 275/275 and above. Alas, the infinite loop goblin put a quick stop to those plans. The best I could do was 260/260 for a long time. At least the card is doing better than default speed, though.

The way that I test for stability is simple: in 3DMark2001 I run the 7 "game tests" only, with 3 repeats for each test. When my system is unstable, it will not complete this run without an IL lockup. That's to say, the graphics freeze, and I have to reset with the reset button (no response with CTRL-ALT-DEL).

Last week I replaced my 300W PSU for a 450W Antec power supply. This has also caused an incremental improvement in stability; I can run stable at 270/270 with AGP texture acceleration ON now, but not at 275/275!

I have tried a long, long list of things to resolve my IL problems, with little success. I can appreciate the frustration of RoLo and others. I believe the problem is a hardware issue with either the graphics card or the mobo - but I'll live with it for the moment.

- Cogs
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Old Jun 5, 2002, 09:54 AM   #20
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After I upgraded to WinXP, I saw the IL error quite often with my old GeForce 256. This was my excuse to go out and buy a new Radeon 8500, but, as it so happened, the IL crashes didn't go away with the new card.

I eventually read this thread on Usenet, http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ntli.net#link8, and learned that it's not only the voltages that matter. The number of amps the power supply can provide on the 3.3 V rail is very important too. So I bought a new Macron MPT-400 power supply from Computer Geeks (currently $41), http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=MPT-400, which has 22 A on the 3.3 V line. I haven't had a single infinite loop error since! I hope this helps.
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Old Jun 5, 2002, 11:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by KingRoLo


Ive got every right to complain and whine escpecially when you dont read my posts. In my posts it will say that YES I HAVE RETURNED THE CARD (plus i know it works coz i tried it at work in the P4 1.6). And Rasta YES I HAVE PLAYED CHANGED THE DRIVING CONTROL, They have been changed to FF & CC (which according to tech support/forum mod guy at www.overclockers.co.uk are the most stable settings for the 8KHA+) I have mentioned these points on various occassions, and i know youve read them before.

and as for:

search - search for what?
phone - currently in conversation with overclockers.co.uk
replace - there's not much more to replace
remedy - still waiting for one

Also, you managed to solve infinite loops on Ghost Recon, big deal, thats one game, This problem manifests itself in every game.

btw. i do appreciate your help but i dont think this will work until i replace the 8KHA+ (even then ill be very sceptical)

RoLo
RoLo - I've read somewhere (it was either amdmb.com, amdzone.com, or OC Workbench) that the KHA+ is not compatible with the 8500. Prior to the 6000 series of drivers for XP, I encountered the infinite loop with the SiS735 chipset and any ATi video card with the 3200 series. In that situation, it was driver related. In your case, the problem is tied into the motherboard you have. Granted, some people HAVE gotten it to work, but the few don't represent the majority. Basically comes down to 3 choices:

1.) Swap out KHA+ for another manufacturer's VIA chipset-based MB that's known to reliability work with Radeon (KT266A or KT333 chipset).
2.) Swap out KHA+ for an SiS chipset-based MB (i.e. Leadtek, ECS). Will most likely require a format and reinstall.
3.) Swap out Radeon8500 for a GF3/4. A guy I work with bought my old GF3 off of me and has had 0 issues with the KHA+ MB.
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Old Jun 5, 2002, 12:41 PM   #22
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This is kinda long, so bear with me......

My dad gave me this system to replace my old Slot A 750Mhz Athlon mobo, a K7M from Asus.
He purchased this system around the end of Feb, beginning of Mar of last year (I put it together for him). There were no problems until I upgraded from the GF2 MX400 my dad had in it to the 8500 I had in my old system, which I purchased around the end of Nov last year. Even since then I have gotten the IL.

The only things that have changed since my dad had given it to me was the processor, now a 1.4 T-bird instead of a 750 Duron and the 8500 instead of the GF2 MX400. I also formatted when I switched the graphics cards.

MSI K7T Pro-2A, ver 1. (MS-6330; Via chipset)
AMD 1.4 T-Bird.
ATI Radeon 8500 64MB Retail.
512mb PCI-133 Kingston ram, 1 stick.
40gig 7200RPM Maxtor ATA100 HDD.
Kingston 10/100 NIC.
Via AC'97 Audio.
Windows XP Home

I have removed the NIC and tryed playing without, still get the IL, I have even put my Duron 750Mhz back in (thinking maybe processor was bad) and I still get the IL. I have tried every driver release since november, when I bought the card. I have tried all the Via drivers that are available for XP, only 2 versions I believe.

I am beginning to think that this is a hardware problem with this mobo, or the graphics card itself. Morrowind runs flawlessly (besides coding bugs) on my dad's new system, not a single crash.

My 300W PSU stats are as follows:

[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]

I upped the voltages on my 3.3V rail to 3.45, this fixed the problem for a couple of days, but then the IL showed back up. The IL occurs most often when I'm playing Morrowind, UT and a few others.

Oh, and with the new OGL ICD(the SOF2 patched one), I can't even start a multiplayer game in Jedi Knight 2 because it locks up within 5 secs everytime. I didn't bother trying to play single player, so I reformatted my HD to see if all my problems where perhaps with a corrupt registry --nope.

So before I RMA this card or mobo, would you suggest purchasing a PSU with more than 20A on the 3.3V rail?

Thanks much in advance.
~Moridin

Last edited by Moridin : Jun 5, 2002 at 12:44 PM.
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Old Jun 5, 2002, 02:30 PM   #23
RealyPssd
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Hmmm, don't have the time to read the whole thread, but I've got a motherboard using a VIA chipset (KT133a) and I've never had the infinite loop ever happen to me, either with my old 64MBDDR VIVO, or my new retail 8500.
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Old Jun 6, 2002, 03:00 AM   #24
crash override
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Default Re: How can we make ATi declare this problem as official..?

Quote:
Originally posted by puNani
The problem I am reffering to is the Infinite Loop. This subject has been discussed many time here by many people, and no one seems to have a direct answer of what is causing it.

People have suggested it may resolve of:
* Tempature (not in my case)
* Faulty Card (At least 20 people in this forum have the problem - are all of their cards faulty?)
* Insufficient Voltage (again, not in my case, I got a 350w psu)
* Out of date [display drivers/ bios /via drivers] (got all the latest versions)
* Incompability with VIA based Motherbaords (could be in my case)

And perhaps some other suggestions which also does not apply to me and probably to other people.

If it really is an incompability issue with VIA based Motherboards, how can we test it for sure? ATi does not recognize the problem some of us are suffering from and we get a whole lot of frustration.

So I ask, what can we do?

(Also See: My Old IL Problem Thread )

What can we do?
the W on your powersupply isnt near as important as what its putting out on its 12 and 5v leads

read and figure it out heh

what brand is your power supply and how old is it? btw for newer XPs a 400W is the recommended minimum these days
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Old Jun 6, 2002, 07:09 AM   #25
lofwyr
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@puNani, Nick7

Can you give me the production week/year of your cards ?
And btw: As far as I know, an "infinite loop error" _always_ means BSOD with the usual MS-bullshit on screen (disable caching, update your driver etc.)
I have the problem described above (randomly).
You are describing random lockups in 3D-games, this is imho no infinite loop.

Regards,
Lofwyr

Last edited by lofwyr : Jun 6, 2002 at 07:29 AM.
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Old Jun 6, 2002, 09:22 AM   #26
Cogs
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Quote:
And btw: As far as I know, an "infinite loop error" _always_ means BSOD with the usual MS-bullshit on screen (disable caching, update your driver etc.)
I have the problem described above (randomly).
You are describing random lockups in 3D-games, this is imho no infinite loop.
Well, no, actually. Check out this article:

http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=64

Here's a quote:

WinXP: 3D or 2D applications - system will lock and and then automatically restart. This is a feature of XP and not part of the issue. The automatic restart simply saves you from having to press the restart button.

Win2K: 3D or 2D applications - system will lock up and then present a blue screen error reporting an infinite loop

WinME/98: 3D or 2D applications - system will lock up, requiring you to reset the system with either the reset button or power button. Ctrl-Alt-Del will not work.



It's interesting to search other VIA related forums for the words "infinite loop", and just read what other people are experiencing. Many nVidia users assume that the problem is isolated to nVidia cards and/or drivers! This is an extensive and complex issue, affecting many brands of hardware.

-Cogs
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Old Jun 6, 2002, 09:29 AM   #27
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@Cogs
Viaarena is referring to a "loop error" on variuos Windows versions which by all means is _not_ the XP only "Infinite Loop".

Look at this thread:

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...eadid=33621111
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Old Jun 6, 2002, 09:49 AM   #28
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Quote:
Viaarena is referring to a "loop error" on variuos Windows versions which by all means is _not_ the XP only "Infinite Loop".
VIA Arena refers quite specifically to "infinite loop", numerous times. The Microsoft article that you are referring to does not state that the infinite loop always means BSOD. It it saying that the error messages "can occur when the display driver is caught in an infinite loop".

Different versions of Windows manifest the problem differently, thats all.

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Last edited by Cogs : Jun 6, 2002 at 09:58 AM.
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Old Jun 6, 2002, 02:38 PM   #29
puNani
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Default Re: Re: How can we make ATi declare this problem as official..?

Quote:
Originally posted by crash override


the W on your powersupply isnt near as important as what its putting out on its 12 and 5v leads

read and figure it out heh

what brand is your power supply and how old is it? btw for newer XPs a 400W is the recommended minimum these days
I have a brand new power suppply, It comes with the CASE (ENERMAX FS-710B) - a 350w power supplier by enermax.
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Old Jun 6, 2002, 04:11 PM   #30
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I had this problem a few months ago. I couldn't go more than two or three hours without getting an Infinite Loop error. I have a Tyan 2460 MB with Dual 1600+ MPs AMD Athlons. I tried all the software and driver avenues with dead ends on all. Finally, I replaced my memory with ECC/Registered Crucial chips and enabled the ECC. I have never had a problem since. My machine can stay running days on end and no problems. Oddly, if I disabled the ECC in the BIOS, the Infinite Loop errors resume.

Anyway, thats my experience.

Shawn

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Dual 1600+ Athlons O/C FSB 150Mhz
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