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Old Dec 23, 2003, 01:03 PM   #1
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spine
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Cool The Official "We want Super-Sampling Anti-Aliasing" thread. Read if you want to help

Just thought I'd make a dedicated thread about this method of Anti-Aliasing (AA) that many people here clearly would like to see in a future driver set. If you already know all about this, then skip down the page to the last section


Background (for peeps who wanna know what this is all about)

The current method of AA used in ATI's Catalyst drivers is "Multi-Sampling Anti Aliasing" (MSAA). Without going into explaining why, this method only anti-aliases edges of polygons and does not do any processing on the inside of a polygon. This means that there is less texture blurring and also means quite a significant performance boost over other methods since it does alot less processing.

The problem:
The unfortunate negative effect of MSAA is that alpha textures end up very aliased. Alpha textures are just textures than have sections of transparency where you can see through parts of it. Typically, alpha textures are used in games for things like fence gratings, tree leaves etc. You might think that high levels of Anisotropic filtering would solve this, but it does not, and that is not a very efficient solution either.

The solution
The simple solution is to apply a "Super-Sampling Anti Aliasing" method. Again, without explaining it, the effect of this method is that EVERYTHING on screen is anti aliased. This of course means alpha textures are properly smoothed and also means that AA will still take effect when smart shaders are deployed. For instance, in Max payne 2, when you enter bullet time, with SSAA, the AA will not be 'switched off'. The only negative with this form of AA is, of course, a decrease in performance.


MSAA. Look at the tree leaves, they are all jaggy and nasty looking.


SSAA rendition by Exxtreme. Notice the tree leaves are now smooth and blend with the sky.

pics by Exxtreme


SSAA is already supported in hardware!

We know for a FACT that SSAA is embedded in the hardware of the Radeon family of cards. The only thing keeping us from using it is the lack of support in the driver. Check out this driver info page for the Mac OS drivers;
http://www2.ati.com/drivers/radeon_readme_nov_2003.html
At the bottom in the game problem section we see both MSAA and SSAA mentioned clearly demonstrating their existence.


So if the Mac has SSAA, why don't us Windows users have the same?

Well, it's pretty obviously due to marketing. If ATI were to provide an option for SSAA, it'd perform slower. People would then compare this method of AA with the competition and thus ATI's cards would be seen to be performing alot worse than they otherwise would.




So what are we gunna do about it?

Simple, we should ALL (and yes, that means YOU!) goto the driver feedback section at ATI's site and make a request for this feature.

To facilitate this, I've written below a paragraph which you can copy and paste into the relevent section at ATI's site. So it's like this;

1. Goto ATI's driver feedback section: http://apps.ati.com/driverfeedback/index.asp
2. Fill in your name and other details neccessary.
3. Select "Feature Request" for the "Issue Type" option.
4. Copy and paste the following paragraph into the "Issue Description" section;

Request for SSAA.

The Mac OS drivers support Super-Sampling Anti-Aliasing as well as the standard MSAA and so I think it would be a great addition to the windows drivers if the option to choose between the two was available on this platform.

Thankyou for reading.


5. Actually get off your butt and do this! Don't expect everyone else to do it. YOU, yes YOU need to do it as well. This is a very popular forum and if as many people who read this thread make the request it'll most certainly be noticed.
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 01:16 PM   #2
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Done. 1 (Everyone should put a number in his post AFTER REPORTING TO ATI to see exactly how many people actually did this)
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 01:26 PM   #3
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done. 2

i don't like it when a company says the product can do something but decides later that i don't have the compitence or capacity to choose for my self if i should turn on!
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 01:57 PM   #4
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done 3.

Well, did it before, but signing to add +1 to the count. Come on people! We need at LEAST 50 posts. There's easily enough people here to do it and it'll benefit everyone.
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 01:57 PM   #5
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Added my support. 4
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 02:00 PM   #6
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Cool

Done. 5
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 02:04 PM   #7
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6..

However.. I think the user should have a choice of the AA applied to the game, in the control panel.. Let the user decide what to use..
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 02:09 PM   #8
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Done 7
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 02:13 PM   #9
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I doned it...8

It appears it can fix abuncha FSAA problems with games and Multisampling. Looking at the mac release notes lots of "problem using MSAA" issues was fixed by just saying "Use SSAA"
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 02:25 PM   #10
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Thumbs up

done 9

Nice to see a properly thought out thread for this issue
well done
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 02:38 PM   #11
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Thumbs up

Done 10
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 02:47 PM   #12
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Done! 11
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 02:53 PM   #13
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Done make my ff7 look leet thank you very much.
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i dont know, this guy sounds british, the zero punctuation guy is australian, also talks a hell of a lot faster
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 02:54 PM   #14
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Great idea spine...Done 11
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 02:55 PM   #15
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Done, 12. Though it should be 14 if some people would learn to count
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 02:55 PM   #16
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Talking making a baker's dozen

Done, 13.
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 03:04 PM   #17
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Default Re: The Official "We want Super-Sampling Anti-Aliasing" thread. Read if you want to h

Quote:
Originally posted by spine
This means that there is less texture blurring
Errm, SSAA doesn't blur textures if the driver does handle the LOD-bias correctly. With the right LOD-bias the textures are sharper. Some old voodoo5-drivers had determinated a false LOD-bias so the textures were blurry.

Done 14.

Here 2 screenshots:

Gothic 1 with MSAA:
http://exxtreme78.bei.t-online.de/4xRGMSAA16xtri-AF.png

Gothic 1 with (photochopped) SSAA:
http://exxtreme78.bei.t-online.de/4xOGSSAA16xtri-AF.png

Edit:
http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulle...hreadid=113782


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Old Dec 23, 2003, 03:05 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by black_hole_sun
Done, 12. Though it should be 14 if some people would learn to count
if you're refering to me, my "maths,mind" switchs off @ 8:00pm
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i dont know, this guy sounds british, the zero punctuation guy is australian, also talks a hell of a lot faster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URcvdDtnM_0
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 03:12 PM   #19
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I've also got about 5 of my m8's to do this
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 03:15 PM   #20
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Done , 15?
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 03:31 PM   #21
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done...18.
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 03:47 PM   #22
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Done.... sorry lost count :P
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 04:00 PM   #23
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|)irtyD!Ck, Done, 19.
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 04:44 PM   #24
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Thanks for all the replies. About 26 so far methinks, that's including jamesclarke555's 5 mates and himself.

I've also made a post at overclockers.com forums:
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=255859

Should get a bunch more people to pester ATI about.


Also edited the first post to include pics by exxtreme to illustrate the prob (hope you don't mind dude )
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 05:50 PM   #25
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done.
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 06:05 PM   #26
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Done. ( Insert number here)
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 06:12 PM   #27
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Done.

ozz
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 06:43 PM   #28
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Done
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 08:01 PM   #29
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done
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Old Dec 23, 2003, 08:02 PM   #30
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Done now can we get a thread like this for F-Buffer?
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...eadid=33732424
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