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Old Mar 7, 2020, 08:29 PM   #211
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Actually no, if you have a 1440p monitor (or 1440 widescreen), you choose 1440p in the game settings. Then turn on DLSS and everything is done internally. The output is still going to be 1440p even though a lower internal resolution is used, because the reconstructed output will be in 1440p, not the lower resolution. There's no reason to use DSR at all and it offers no benefit over DLSS 2.0 (which supports 1440p widescreen out of the box).


Also decided to check out DLSS 2.0 for myself, seems alot of people here (myself included) were basing what they were seeing from youtube screenshots or videos.

I didn't realize Wolfenstein youngblood was part of Xbox game pass, downloading that right now. It's not a game I'm interesting in playing, but since its free as part of gamepass, hey might as well check it out.

I did buy Deliver Us to the Moon because it is a game I want to play. In the beginning area now. Game looks fantasic with Ray Tracing set to EPIC, but it tanks performance considerably at 4k.

I turned on DLSS and took these screenshots.

So, regardless of your opinions on DLSS in the past, who can tell me which screenshot is native 4k and which one is DLSS 4k? I mixed them up on purpose. Also, there is a significant performance difference when turning on / off DLSS. The game is not all that playable as I would like with RTX set to EPIC and DLSS off.






Not a youtube screenshot, just a direct screen capture from the game itself so there should be zero affects from lighting, contrast, etc. Hopefully the host doesn't compress the image too much, if at all. Which looks different, better, etc?
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 09:56 PM   #212
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His question was could he use DLSS to render higher than his monitor supports. So that would be no right? He would need to use DSR to render 8K down to 4K. DLSS set to 1440P would upconvert 1080P to 1440P. Otherwise it would be a waste of time right? Setting DLSS at 4K will upconvert 1440P to 4K.

EDIT:
The top screenshot looks darker. It's shadows look slightly more thick and it's lighting looks a little less punchy. The details on the suit and text look sharper on the bottom image. There are differences between the image but the real question is what is it supposed to look like? Getting the developers intended look of the lighting and sharpness is more important. Anyone can apply a sharpness filter or offset the contrast on their monitor so it's really not important which one is which, only that there is a difference between the two. Also what they look like in motion. For example, sharpness filters can cause shimmering problems in motion sometimes.

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Old Mar 7, 2020, 10:11 PM   #213
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Well, technically he could use DSR to set to some kind of 4k widescreen mode and then turn on DLSS. I don't know if that will work in practice though, DLSS 2.0 does support widescreen but there's no actual 4k widescreen monitors, only 1440p.

Even if it was possible though, seems kinda pointless to jump through those hoops. Better off just using 1440p DLSS from the getgo, or use the games internal scalar. DSR is just basically super sampling and then you have to mess with sharpness.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 10:18 PM   #214
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If he uses 1440P DLSS it's going to upconvert 1080P to 1440P isn't it? Wouldn't that be the opposite of what he is trying to achieve?

If I set 8K DSR down to 4K resolution and then enable 4K DLSS would it even work? Wouldn't it down sample 8K to 1440P and then upscale that to 4K? Weather you upscale or downscale an image you are going to need to adjust sharpness because the pixels won't match up with the native resolution you are gaming at. Wouldn't you get much higher image quality from an 8K DSR to 4K with sharpness pushed up vs using 4K DLSS that would upconvert 1440P to 4K and apply it's own sharpening filter automatically? 8K DSR should supply superior texture resolution and remove the need for AA completely which will also help with clarity and sharpness. DSR also has a direct control for adjusting the sharpness to match the original. DSR will take more GPU processing power where DLSS is saving you GPU power by using lower texture resolutions and applying AA and sharpening filters.

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Old Mar 7, 2020, 10:25 PM   #215
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EDIT:
The top screenshot looks darker. It's shadows look slightly more thick and it's lighting looks a little less punchy. The details on the suit and text look sharper on the bottom image. There are differences between the image but the real question is what is it supposed to look like? Getting the developers intended look of the lighting and sharpness is more important. Anyone can apply a sharpness filter or offset the contrast on their monitor so it's really not important which one is which, only that there is a difference between the two. Also what they look like in motion. For example, sharpness filters can cause shimmering problems in motion sometimes.
The developers said DLSS and ray tracing implemented in their game is exactly how they wanted it to be. They offer 3 modes for each. I'm using ray tracing set to EPIC and DLSS set to quality mode.

But, not going to reveal just yet until more people compare for themselves. What I can tell you though:

- The difference in performance is significant. With DLSS off at native 4k with TAA High the game just likes to hang around the 30fps mark, especially in areas with lots of reflections. With DLSS on I'm pretty much close to 60fps all the time, no noticeable lag in performance. I am still in the beginning areas though.

- There's no shimmering in motion in either 4k TAA or 4k DLSS. There is bad, eye bleeding shimmering though at native 4k with no AA applied. The screenshot I took is with 4k native at TAA High.

- There's no apparent or even subtle differences in lighting or contrast that I can see in motion or standing still with either mode when actually in game (DLSS can be turned on /off on the fly). I'm gaming on an LG 65" 4k HDR display with their best color technology from 3 years ago when I bought it brand new.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 10:41 PM   #216
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I would assume what they meant is that they got DLSS to look as close to real 4K as possible. Not arguing with you just saying they do look different in those screen shots. If the difference is minor and it's giving you a boost to playable FPS vs non playable then I agree that it's a nice feature. Personally, I would rather just buy a card that can do real 4K and be done with it though. I could always bump the sharpness up in my GPU control panel if I wanted 4K to look even sharper than it's supposed to. All effects from sharpening to texture resolution upscales will have a negative effect somewhere. It's just a matter of how well they can hide it really. I don't trust it to be supported well enough for it to make higher resolutions pointless in the future. It might be able to do decent job of faking a single resolution bump if the developers spend enough time on it but they can't be bothered to support SLI so I don't trust them to support DLSS unless someone is paying them. That's why even though DLSS is exciting and worthwhile, it will never replace brute force.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 10:44 PM   #217
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If he uses 1440P DLSS it's going to upconvert 1080P to 1440P isn't it? Wouldn't that be the opposite of what he is trying to achieve?

If I set 8K DSR down to 4K resolution and then enable 4K DLSS would it even work? Wouldn't it down sample 8K to 1440P and then upscale that to 4K? Weather you upscale or downscale an image you are going to need to adjust sharpness because the pixels won't match up with the native resolution you are gaming at. Wouldn't you get much higher image quality from an 8K DSR to 4K with sharpness pushed up vs using 4K DLSS that would upconvert 1440P to 4K and apply it's own sharpening filter automatically?
What will your performance be when setting the game to run at 8k internally?

When using 4k DLSS, it's using 1440p as the base resolution but the output will be native 4k. You're using 4k DLSS in native 4k mode, not 1440p, that's what allows the reconstruction to give equivalent 4k image quality.

With DSR, if you use it to render internally at 8k on a native 4k screen, your performance is going to tank BIG time and the output may or may not even be better than the reconstruction algorithm. My 2080Ti is already struggling in alot of games to maintain 4k 60fps, why would I use DSR?

Or in his case, why would he use 4k DSR on his native 1440p screen? He's still only getting 1440p pixels, not 4k. 1440p DLSS uses 1080p as the base but it's reconstructed at 1440p image quality, and he gets a major performance boost. Using 4k DSR on a 1440p he MAY get better image quality depending on how good/bad the DLSS implementation is, but he WILL get far worse performance doing so.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 10:51 PM   #218
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I agree, 8K DSR is going to be more demanding but he seemed more interested in pushing quality even higher than what his monitor was capable of which is what DSR is for. I asked earlier for the same reason. I was hoping I could achieve close to 8K image quality on my 4K panel. DSR is the only way to do that. DLSS is about improving performance and hoping it doesn't hurt your image quality at your native resolution.

I have a lot of older games like GTA 5 and Stalker that I can push at 4K with no real problems using 1080TI SLI. With dual 3080TI's I plan to push them at 8K and use DSR on my 4K panel. As for new titles I will try to push native 4K. DLSS is something I plan to use on new titles toward the end of the 3080TI's life cycle if the games I am playing can't be forced into SLI mode and a single card is not enough for 60FPS. It's a cool feature for sure! I'm not trying to argue that point at all. Just saying that it can't replace DSR and does the opposite of it.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 10:52 PM   #219
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I would assume what they meant is that they got DLSS to look as close to real 4K as possible. Not arguing with you just saying they do look different in those screen shots. If the difference is minor and it's giving you a boost to playable FPS vs non playable then I agree that it's a nice feature. Personally, I would rather just buy a card that can do real 4K and be done with it though. I could always bump the sharpness up in my GPU control panel if I wanted 4K to look even sharper than it's supposed to.
Sharpness won't give you any extra pixel detail, just the illusion of it and only up to a point before sharpening artifacts creep in. Sharpness also won't do anything to improve your performance, especially in native 4k with ray tracing set to EPIC.

If you're saying you can't tell which screenshot is actually 4k and which one is DLSS, then DLSS is actually doing its job. Looking slightly different is ok. Especially when the difference is 33fps vs 55 fps. Whatever difference you're seeing is because you have all the time in the world to analyze those still screenshots, I bet if I gave you a hidden mode test you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in motion. Heck I just played a few minutes ago and switched back and forth like a madman, I couldn't spot any glaring differences while playing.

Maybe Acroig can chime in since played the game as well on his 2080Ti.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 11:00 PM   #220
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That's what DLSS is doing though if the image appears more sharp than native 4K. It's applying it's own sharpening filter. All I'm getting at is that one of the images looks sharper than the other. If the sharper image is the DLSS image then it's using a sharpening effect that I could apply on my own if I wanted it to look sharper than it's supposed to. If the DLSS shot is the one that looks softer, then it's not sharp enough. Same with the lighting. One screen looks darker than the others. You can see the white crush on the grates near the white light source on the ceiling is more intense in one of the shots and the shadows on the left wall appear thicker in one of the shots. The tan lighting behind the grated door on the left side of the image clearly looks more bright in one of the shots. The fine details on the space suit and the letters above the back door are more sharp in one of the shots.

If I had the game and looked at it at 4K native, I would know what it's supposed to look like and could tell you which one was DLSS and which one was native. I don't know what it's supposed to look like though so I can't personally say. In motion I would have less time to evaluate it and it might be such a small difference that it doesn't matter. If that's the case then that is great for DLSS and will make using it less painful when I eventually have to use it. Hopefully that kind of quality becomes the norm and more titles support DLSS in the future. It's important to note that some people say the difference between 1440P and 4K is not very noticeable in the first place. So it really does come down to the individual and how perceptive they are toward this sort of thing.

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Old Mar 7, 2020, 11:14 PM   #221
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That's what DLSS is doing though if the image appears more sharp than native 4K. It's applying it's own sharpening filter. All I'm getting at is that one of the images looks shaper than the other. If the sharper image is the DLSS image then it's using a sharpening effect that I could apply on my own if it wanted it to look sharper than it's supposed to. If the DLSS shot is the one that looks softer, then it's not sharp enough. Same with the lighting. One screen looks darker than the others. You can see the white crush on the grates near the white light source is more intense on one of the shots and the shadows on the wall appear thicker one of the shots. If I had the game and looked at it at 4K native, I would know what it's supposed to look like and could tell you which one was DLSS and which one was native. I don't know what it's supposed to look like though so I can't personally say.
It sounds like you got your bases covered regardless of which screenshot is which

I will say that with the old implementation (DLSS 1.0), you could immediately tell it was a DLSS image because it gave at BEST 1800p equivalent in terms of image quality. That fact that you can't tell which is DLSS, does show DLSS 2.0 is doing its job.

Also, you can't just sharpen a 1440p image and make it look like 4k. Regardless of sharpening algorithm.

If you look at the example in Youngblood a couple pages ago of the radar screen, you can see it reconstructed the radar monitor exceptionally well. That's not a sharpen, that's a more detailed reconstruction from the AI. It's not anything new either... deep learning super resolution is an actual field with active research:

https://towardsdatascience.com/deep-...n-11c9bb5b6cd5

All that being said, it's not a question of which image looks sharper (you'll be surprised when I reveal the answer lol). It's a question of do both images look like 4k images? Does one look like it's NOT 4k native quality? Both screenshots are in 3840x2160 resolution, you should be able to easily spot a sharpened 1440p image from one of them if that's what you think DLSS is.

Lastly, if think you can just sharpen a 1440p image into a 4k one, go ahead and try it with Nvidia Freestyle. Let me know how that goes.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 11:21 PM   #222
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I know you can't just sharpen a 1440P image to 4K but if you want to make a 4K image look a little sharper than it's supposed to then you can sharpen it without much issue. I use ESRSGAN to train AI for enhanced texture packs for old games and it's an amazing time to be alive! I'm not covering the bases to prove you wrong, I wasn't the one arguing with you in the first place. My point is that if DLSS was truly achieving it's goal it would look identical. It wouldn't look sharper or more blurry. It wouldn't look darker or brighter. The images you provided look good and they look way better than the image comparisons I saw for Metro Exodus back when DLSS was first launched. DLSS has come a long way but it's still not truly identical to native 4K. The AI can use a sharpening filter in small areas that make it hard to notice even in motion, it's cool technology.
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Old Mar 8, 2020, 12:23 AM   #223
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I know you can't just sharpen a 1440P image to 4K but if you want to make a 4K image look a little sharper than it's supposed to then you can sharpen it without much issue. I use ESRSGAN to train AI for enhanced texture packs for old games and it's an amazing time to be alive! I'm not covering the bases to prove you wrong, I wasn't the one arguing with you in the first place. My point is that if DLSS was truly achieving it's goal it would look identical. It wouldn't look sharper or more blurry. It wouldn't look darker or brighter. The images you provided look good and they look way better than the image comparisons I saw for Metro Exodus back when DLSS was first launched. DLSS has come a long way but it's still not truly identical to native 4K. The AI can use a sharpening filter in small areas that make it hard to notice even in motion, it's cool technology.
I don't think DLSS will ever be identical to 4k, but that's not really the goal. It's like those photos in the link, they won't ever be an identical copy of its high resolution form, but they'll be close and pretty much near indistinguishable if the AI gets it just right.

Games are more forgiving. I actually stepped down to 1440p native, and 4k DLSS is so much more better and higher resolution (not the same thing as sharper) . You can't fake 4k details in a 1440p image. Running through the levels I appreciated there wasn't any loss of detail. If you look at the lockers in both screenshots, they're both high resolution and with excellent detail. A 1440p image even when sharpened wouldn't have that same level of detail at that distance.

I'm not going to argue this point anymore because I'm actually playing the game and it looks damn near identical to native 4k. I'm looking at the props like signs, posters, consoles, screens, food cans, etc... and there's no loss of detail even when viewed from a distance compared to native 4k. If I did a blind mode test I wouldn't be able to tell you which is which in motion. What's funny is this game isn't even a DLSS showcase, it's an RTX showcase. DLSS is just a bonus on top.

Off to play some more lol.
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Old Mar 8, 2020, 12:35 AM   #224
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The difference is that the AI on those photos is creating new details that don't exist based on a database of similar images. Nvidia's DLSS is using AI to fill in detail that is already there. You are not seeing details added to the image that are not there in the original 4K image. Nvidia's DLSS is using a stencil to detect differences between the 4K image in it's data base and what the image on your screen looks like. It's simply filling in the blanks. It dynamically sharpens small areas of the image in real time. Those photos take 15 seconds to AI upscale and couldn't be done at 60FPS real time. Even if they could, would you really want an AI making up details that the developers didn't include in their textures and interrupting the intended overall look of the environmental lighting? I wouldn't. The purpose of DLSS is to make a 1440P image look like 4K. It's close but not the same and probably never will be. It's a good technology for giving better image quality than 1440P to people who can't push 4K on their 4K panels. That's all it is and there is nothing wrong with that. I would rather have it than not have it. At some point it will be useful to me I'm sure.

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Old Mar 8, 2020, 01:18 AM   #225
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Here is an example:

I used ERSGAN to AI upscale the back drops from Baldur's Gate. I increased the image size 6X and then downscaled them and reinserted them into the game engine. Notice that the UI and character models have not changed at all. I upscaled only the backdrop.

Original Game:


Custom AI upscaled version:


Regardless of what resolution you view the image at, the backdrop will be more clear than it ever was originally. This is because the original backdrop was blurry and it's details were enhanced by the AI. That's no different than those photos in the link you provided.

What you are seeing with DLSS is not this. You are seeing an image AI upscaled to match an image that is not blurry at all. It's not adding in new details it's simply trying to match the non blurry image. In my example the original image was blurry. They are two different types of technology. DLSS is close to matching the original but can't because you can't make a smaller image identical to a larger one. You can change the developers textures by adding AI detail and sharpening them but what's the point?, the developer could have done that to begin with if they wanted it viewed that way. In the case of Baldur's Gate you are seeing art that couldn't be scanned in at it's natural level of detail back in 1998 and the originals were lost so AI upscaling is the best we can do since we don't have the higher resolution master art.

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Old Mar 8, 2020, 12:02 PM   #226
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The difference is that the AI on those photos is creating new details that don't exist based on a database of similar images. Nvidia's DLSS is using AI to fill in detail that is already there. You are not seeing details added to the image that are not there in the original 4K image. Nvidia's DLSS is using a stencil to detect differences between the 4K image in it's data base and what the image on your screen looks like. It's simply filling in the blanks. It dynamically sharpens small areas of the image in real time. Those photos take 15 seconds to AI upscale and couldn't be done at 60FPS real time. Even if they could, would you really want an AI making up details that the developers didn't include in their textures and interrupting the intended overall look of the environmental lighting? I wouldn't. The purpose of DLSS is to make a 1440P image look like 4K. It's close but not the same and probably never will be. It's a good technology for giving better image quality than 1440P to people who can't push 4K on their 4K panels. That's all it is and there is nothing wrong with that. I would rather have it than not have it. At some point it will be useful to me I'm sure.
Nvidia's DLSS does use a reference 4k image as it's target, that's how it's always been. That's also how it's used in photography, the medical field, satellite imagery etc... I posted example links to these many many pages ago in this thread. What takes 15 seconds on your computer takes hours or days in a supercomputer to develop a much more complex AI system to process an image on the fly to its native counterpart.

From Nvidia directly:

The DLSS team first extracts many aliased frames from the target game, and then for each one we generate a matching “perfect frame” using either super-sampling or accumulation rendering. These paired frames are fed to NVIDIA’s supercomputer. The supercomputer trains the DLSS model to recognize aliased inputs and generate high quality anti-aliased images that match the “perfect frame” as closely as possible. We then repeat the process, but this time we train the model to generate additional pixels rather than applying AA. This has the effect of increasing the resolution of the input. Combining both techniques enables the GPU to render the full monitor resolution at higher frame rates.

DLSS 2.0 now somehow merges all the prior learned algorithm so now it applies to every game (with the new trainer, not the old per game trainer), and the more games going through the general trainer, the better it becomes. That's according to HU but have no idea how Nvidia implements it.



Now, gaming is much more forgiving than the other fields mentioned above. So if the end result is that you have equivalent, or "near equivalent" 4k image quality with a major performance boost, that's not a bad thing is it?

After all, you DO have a choice to run DLSS or not (if you have the hardware), you can always run native if you wish. So I ask you this, if you wanted to play this game at 4k and you had the choice between 4k 30fps everything maxed out and 4k DLSS 60 fps everything maxed out, which would you choose? Based on the differences you see above in Deliver Us the Moon?

I can post more examples also. I also have youngblood and will be doing that also. I have to say it's fun when people don't know which is which.
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Old Mar 8, 2020, 01:07 PM   #227
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If I showed you a painting of the Mona Lisa with no nose and then another one with a nose and you had never seen the painting before....which one is correct? That's the reason why people can't tell which is which. You can over sharpen text, boost color saturation, blur the image and increase resolution in small pockets. The differences are apparent but all that should matter is what the game developer intended. If you don't know what it's supposed to look like then you will just have to be willing to take whatever the GPU feeds you as the intention....even if it delivers a Mona Lisa with no nose.

If I were faced with the choice of 4K 30FPS vs 4K DLSS 60FPS I would choose the DLSS option hands down as long as we are talking about the 2.0 version. I'm not arguing with you in regards to DLSS being useful and cool. I'm just saying it's not 4K native and if I could choose between using DLSS or not at 4K 60FPS I would go native without question.

What Nvidia is doing is no different than what Sony does on it's high end TV's. They have a broad data base that is cranked out on a super computer and then the results of that data is stored in the data base that the video processor feeds off of in real time. Sony's higher end TV's also boost resolution in real time to make the image appear more crisp in motion. I use Gigapixel AI which also AI upscales images based on a large data base that is always being updated and improving. ESRGAN isn't as effective at doing things on the fly but you can train per game which can be more effective than a generalized data base if you spend the time to train it like I did with the Baldur's Gate backdrops. The reason a generalized super data base is better for DLSS is because game developers are too lazy to train AI just for there game. Nvidia's data base is doing most of the hard work for them now.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm simply pointing out that it's a downgrade from the real thing. If developers want, they could use AI boosted tech at default 4K and it would look even better than normal 4K which in turn, would look better than 1440P AI boosted images to 4K. Either way, lower resolution will never equal higher resolution because the same improvements that can be applied at lower resolution can also be applied to higher resolutions. 8KDLSS would be even better than 4K ect, but only if you are willing to live with an altered artistic vision with some flaws in exchange for the illusion of higher resolution. In it's current 2.0 version, based on what I have seen, I would be willing to live with it if my FPS are below 60FPS at 4K and SLI doesn't work. If you compare 4KDLSS to 1440P DLSS, which one looks better?

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Old Mar 8, 2020, 02:00 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
If I showed you a painting of the Mona Lisa with no nose and then another one with a nose and you had never seen the painting before....which one is correct? That's the reason why people can't tell which is which. You can over sharpen text, boost color saturation, blur the image and increase resolution in small pockets. The differences are apparent but all that should matter is what the game developer intended. If you don't know what it's supposed to look like then you will just have to be willing to take whatever the GPU feeds you as the intention....even if it delivers a Mona Lisa with no nose.
That's strange, I looked all over a missing nose but didn't find one

One of those screenshots is the "original" one. The other is the DLSS one. Nvidia worked with devs for Deliver Us the Moon, it's not a case of showing something different than what the devs intended. Remember, even though a general trainer is used now it still needs to be implemented by the devs themselves. It was the devs who provided the 3 different DLSS options, not Nvidia. Nvidia did the AI training for them for each.



Quote:
If I were faced with the choice of 4K 30FPS vs 4K DLSS 60FPS I would choose the DLSS option hands down as long as we are talking about the 2.0 version.
That's been entirely my point. You get near perfect 4k quality at much better performance then if you ran native 4k with poor performance, all at the same high/ultra/epic settings.

Quote:
I'm not arguing with you in regards to DLSS being useful and cool. I'm just saying it's not 4K native and if I could choose between using DLSS or not at 4K 60FPS I would go native without question.
Well how many games can you run at 4k 60fps native outside of older games? Not that many if we're taking into account new games.

I bet you certainly won't be able to run Cyberpunk 2077 at native 4k 60fps with all settings maxed regardless of graphics card. If DLSS 2.0 does gets you close to that performance with the slightest of negligible difference in image quality, DLSS is doing it's job, isn't it?


Quote:
What Nvidia is doing is no different than what Sony does on it's high end TV's. They have a broad data base that is cranked out on a super computer and then the results of that data is stored in the data base that the video processor feeds off of in real time. Sony's higher end TV's also boost resolution in real time to make the image appear more crisp in motion.
This isn't remotely the same thing. In fact TV upscalers can't be directly compared because their upscaling algorithms aren't tuned for games. They're essentially glorified photoshop upscalars designed to clean up older video sources (say 480p) to 1080p or 4k. I bet if you took a game and turned on the upscaler, it will be missing minute details because their AI isn't looking for aliased edges or texture detail. Nvidia's AI is specifically targeted towards game environments.

Quote:
I use Gigapixel AI which also AI upscales images based on a large data base that is always being updated and improving. ESRGAN isn't as effective at doing things on the fly but you can train per game which can be more effective than a generalized data base if you spend the time to train it like I did with the Baldur's Gate backdrops. The reason a generalized super data base is better for DLSS is because game developers are too lazy to train AI just for there game. Nvidia's data base is doing most of the hard work for them now.
Yes, Nvidia needs to do the bulk of the work because devs will not do any additional coding if they don't have to. The best you'll see is internal scalers in games.

Just look at DX12, that was supposed to be the god send to the gaming community because it gave back control to devs. And what did devs do? Almost nothing with it. Multi GPU support pretty much died overnight with DX12. Most people now will choose DX11 over DX12 because DX11 tends to give better performance.


Quote:
I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm simply pointing out that it's a downgrade from the real thing. If developers want, they could use AI boosted tech at default 4K and it would look even better than normal 4K which in turn, would look better than 1440P AI boosted images to 4K. Either way, lower resolution will never equal higher resolution because the same improvements that can be applied at lower resolution can also be applied to higher resolutions. 8KDLSS would be even better than 4K ect, but only if you are willing to live with an altered artistic vision with some flaws in exchange for the illusion of higher resolution. In it's current 2.0 version, based on what I have seen, I would be willing to live with it if my FPS are below 60FPS at 4K and SLI doesn't work. If you compare 4KDLSS to 1440P DLSS, which one looks better?
DLSS isn't supposed to be a direct pixel for pixel recreation of 4k. It's an approximation, a very good one. Thus it's very useful. If you cared for pixel for pixel native gameplay, then you would choose to play in 4k even if that meant 20fps? Or turn on DLSS and get nearly identical image quality (with minor differences) with far better gaming performance?

Btw, DLSS 2x (not 2.0) is exactly what you described. It's the native image upscaled to an internal high resolution but since the AI did the bulk of the work, there would be no performance loss. So you'd get a better 4k AA image at the same performance as native 4k (essentially free 64x AA at native 4k). This never came to fruition, for the same reason no dev has ever implemented it. The processing power was either too long, the IQ wasn't improved enough to warrant the processing power that could be used elsewhere, whatever the reason was. Nvidia talks about DLSS 2x here:
https://devblogs.nvidia.com/nvidia-t...ture-in-depth/
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Old Mar 8, 2020, 02:15 PM   #229
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I've agreed the whole time that it's useful and worthwhile. As long as we agree that a driver hack is not better than real hardware that can deliver the real deal then we are in agreement.

Developers work to help insure that DLSS is delivering an image that isn't missing a nose but it's still just an approximation of the real thing. Resolution matters even when DLSS is being used.

As for TV upscaling you would be correct but not with Sony. I got blasted on this forum for stating that Sony's image upscaling was not causing noticeable response delay and that it's different than other TV's fake attempts at it. It can deliver picture clarity at 60hz that can match most high end 120hz computer screens without causing lag in games. Sony has been using the same tech as Nvidia long before Nvidia was. It's part of the reason Nvidia started using sharpening filters and a data base that allows the processor to do fake AA and boosted resolution on small areas of the screen. Sony pioneered this idea back before 2016. It's expensive which is why their top end LCD's cost $10,000. People didn't understand the underlying technology and trolled me into the ground over it but it's true. Motion flow is not the same thing as cine motion and it can be customized to focus on clarity without effecting the natural flow of frames unlike the old versions. Now that Nvidia is doing it, it's generally better understood how these things work in the PC gaming community.

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Old Mar 8, 2020, 02:29 PM   #230
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Exposed,

Nice screen shots. I wish I could go down this rabbit hole, and try to guess which is which, but that is not something I can do. The reason is I don't trust you, and I don't mean that to say you are dishonest, I don't trust what your reaction will be to my answer. We don't have that kind of rapport with each other and with our history, I don't know if we ever will. Maybe, someday that can and will change, I don't know.

You and I are like oil and water. We don't mix. Nearly every discussion ends in disaster. It's both of our faults because we both are equally responsible. We both have our convictions, our interpretations, and we both are stubborn as hell when it comes to our opinions. And we both don't know how to back down, or drop it when it gets out of hand. I do believe you have good intentions when you say lets forget about past opinions, but good intentions tend to get ignored when personality traits and habits take over. And I am saying that because I know how I am. I do a lot of things with good intentions, but they tend to not turn out that way because of my own instabilities and character flaws.

With that said, I am going to attempt to stand on the edge of the rabbit hole, and look in, with hopes that we don't get sucked into another disaster.

To answer the question, would I chose 60 fps over 30 fps. Yes I would.
Do the both screenshots look acceptable, yes. Neither one looks bad, they both look really great, and if you didn't have them sitting side by side to compare, you most likely wouldn't know the difference other than one giving you a better frame rate. But, when you compare them, there are obvious differences, not equivalent, and that doesn't mean bad, they both just have lower quality differences when compared to each other, but that is also subjective to one's own opinion of what their personal preferences of what they consider better quality.

But I have to agree with the_sextein that it is impossible, other than just guessing which is which because we don't know what we are supposed to be looking at. I will use a similar example as the_sextein did. Asking us to chose which is which is like an art teacher who has her 2 top students paint identical pictures, and then asking people walking by in the hallway, who painted which picture, and be correct. It's impossible other than just pure luck of guessing it right. Another way of looking at it is taking the old Coke vs Pepsi taste test and instead of asking which do you like best, they have to tell them which is which. Which wouldn't necessarily be bad, but in this case, it has the potential in turning into an argument of ingredient, process, personal preferences, and one's opinion on which they think is better.

That's all I can say from the edge of this rabbit hole.

As for the game: It looks like fun, I read the description, is it fun?
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Old Mar 8, 2020, 02:52 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
I've agreed the whole time that it's useful and worthwhile. As long as we agree that a driver hack is not better than real hardware that can deliver the real deal then we are in agreement.

Developers work to help insure that DLSS is delivering an image that isn't missing a nose but it's still just an approximation of the real thing. Resolution matters even when DLSS is being used.

As for TV upscaling you would be correct but not with Sony. I got blasted on this forum for stating that Sony's image upscaling was not causing noticeable response delay and that it's different than other TV's fake attempts at it. It can deliver picture clarity at 60hz that can match most high end 120hz computer screens without causing lag in games. Sony has been using the same tech as Nvidia long before Nvidia was. It's part of the reason Nvidia started using sharpening filters and a data base that allows the processor to do fake AA and boosted resolution on small areas of the screen. Sony pioneered this idea back before 2016. It's expensive which is why their top end LCD's cost $10,000. People didn't understand the underlying technology and trolled me into the ground over it but it's true. Motion flow is not the same thing as cine motion and it can be customized to focus on clarity without effecting the natural flow of frames unlike the old versions. Now that Nvidia is doing it, it's generally better understood how these things work in the PC gaming community.
Do you have a link to one of these TV's? I'm actually looking to upgrade my 65" TV this summer to a (gasp!) 75" or 80" inch lol. If it does deliver that kind of image quality, I'm very interested in it. Thanks!

EDIT - not if it costs 10k
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Old Mar 8, 2020, 03:09 PM   #232
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Exposed,

Nice screen shots. I wish I could go down this rabbit hole, and try to guess which is which, but that is not something I can do. The reason is I don't trust you, and I don't mean that to say you are dishonest, I don't trust what your reaction will be to my answer. We don't have that kind of rapport with each other and with our history, I don't know if we ever will. Maybe, someday that can and will change, I don't know.
I don't have any kind of ill intent in this experiment. I just want to see that without the labels being present, if anyone can really tell a difference between each screenshot and if so, see if they can identify which is which. if one of the images is actually 4k native, and the other isn't (DLSS 4k), then is DLSS doing it's job where you can't really tell a difference between the two other than some minor differences? Does one look more 1440p than 4k (sharpness wouldn't influence this)? Would it be worth choosing the "lesser" option to gain back performance especially in 4k? Or would you rather run 4k native and just drop some detail levels (though in this case it would be dropping ray tracing altogether, I'd rather run the game with it. Even ray tracing low is demanding).

Quote:
You and I are like oil and water. We don't mix. Nearly every discussion ends in disaster. It's both of our faults because we both are equally responsible. We both have our convictions, our interpretations, and we both are stubborn as hell when it comes to our opinions. And we both don't know how to back down, or drop it when it gets out of hand. I do believe you have good intentions when you say lets forget about past opinions, but good intentions tend to get ignored when personality traits and habits take over. And I am saying that because I know how I am. I do a lot of things with good intentions, but they tend to not turn out that way because of my own instabilities and character flaws.
I disagree. I can debate with a person in one topic and agree with him 100% in another. You and I just haven't found that common topic yet.

Quote:
With that said, I am going to attempt to stand on the edge of the rabbit hole, and look in, with hopes that we don't get sucked into another disaster.

To answer the question, would I chose 60 fps over 30 fps. Yes I would.
Do the both screenshots look acceptable, yes. Neither one looks bad, they both look really good, and if you didn't have them sitting side by side to compare, you most likely wouldn't know the difference other than one giving you a better frame rate. But, when you compare them, there are obvious differences. But not equivalent, and that doesn't mean bad, they both have negative differences when compared to each other.

But I have to agree with the_sextein that it is impossible, other than just guessing which is which because we don't know what we are supposed to be looking at. I will use a similar example as the_sextein did. Asking us to chose which is which is like an art teacher who has her 2 top students paint identical pictures, and then asking people walking by in the hallway, who painted which picture, and be correct. It's impossible other than just pure luck of guessing it right. Another way of looking at it is taking the old Coke vs Pepsi taste test and instead of asking which do you like best, they have to tell them which is which. Which wouldn't necessarily be bad, but in this case, it has the potential in turning into an argument of ingredient, process, personal preferences, and one's opinion on which they think is better.

That's all I can say from the edge of this rabbit hole.

As for the game: It looks like fun, I read the description, is it fun?
I will say which one is DLSS and which one is native 4k in a few days. But trying to say which one is "correct" is not the way to go about it.

When you run any kind of AA is the image "correct"? No, because the developers didn't target that as their base. But you still run AA, right?

When you sharpen an image is the image "correct"? No, it is not. The developers didn't intend for you to sharpen the image. But you still do it, right?

When you disable any kind of graphic setting or add any graphical mods is the image "correct"? No, because the developers didn't intend for the output of those settings to be the target. But they still give the options, don't they? And you use them, do you not?

DLSS is going to be the least subtle of those because it's only intent is to recreate a native 4k image and it's using a reference native 4k image in the first place. So why would you insist DLSS not being "correct" when those other options fall into the same category as well?

What if i told you BOTH images are correct? Because it was devs who worked with Nvidia to implement DLSS, giving you 3 options? Would you accept "BOTH images are correct" as the answer?

As for the game itself, it's a third person "adventure game" I would say. You need to solve puzzles to proceed. Not complex puzzles, mostly just doing something in one area to move on to the next. Lots of things to do in order to launch into space, for example. I love these kinds of games so I am enjoying it. Visually it does have a "Dead Space" feel, so I'm half expecting a monster to pop out around the corner.
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Old Mar 8, 2020, 03:09 PM   #233
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The cost is why Sony has not made a better LCD since 2016, this is because of the more expensive manufacturing of the backlite. Their new 2019 tech is OLED and costs half as much but doesn't look as good. Lower nits and less contrast. Still, the new panels have the 4K X reality pro chip. You can find them for decent prices these days. For the 77 inch version they are going for $6000. It uses super resolution and combined with motion flow set to clear with smoothness interpolation disabled you get amazing clarity in motion. If you plan to game at 1440P and want the cleanest upscale in the industry the X1 pro processor is the best of the best at 4K upscale.

Since OLED is all the rage these days, I wouldn't consider it a downgrade if that is what you currently own. The Sony XBR A9G will get you where you want to go. I'm waiting for the 8K panels to mature before I buy into a new TV but I'm still using the Z9D which is the king of video quality even after 3 years if you ask me. OLED has slightly better blacks but the backlite master drive truly delivered accurate black with 1600nit peaks. Combined with their X1, it truly delivered despite it's cost. Even the new A9G is largely considered inferior in many ways, 3 years later but it costs half as much so it's still an amazing panel that delivers similar image quality at half the price.
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Old Mar 8, 2020, 03:18 PM   #234
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The cost is why Sony has not made a better LCD since 2016, this is because of the more expensive manufacturing of the backlite. Their new 2019 tech is OLED and costs half as much but doesn't look as good. Lower nits and less contrast. Still, the new panels have the 4K X reality pro chip. You can find them for decent prices these days. For the 77 inch version they are going for $6000. It uses super resolution and combined with motion flow set to clear with smoothness interpolation disabled you get amazing clarity in motion. If you plan to game at 1440P and want the cleanest upscale in the industry the X1 pro processor is the best of the best at 4K upscale.

Since OLED is all the rage these days, I wouldn't consider it a downgrade if that is what you currently own. The Sony XBR A9G will get you where you want to go. I'm waiting for the 8K panels to mature before I buy into a new TV but I'm still using the Z9D which is the king of video quality even after 3 years if you ask me. OLED has slightly better blacks but the backlite master drive truly delivered accurate black with 1600nit peaks. Combined with their X1, it truly delivered despite it's cost. Even the new A9G is largely considered inferior in many ways, 3 years later.
I only have two requirements for my next TV, it must support the newest HDMI standard (for free sync) and it must also support native 120hz plus input. Colors / HDR I assume will already be high end since it will be a high end TV, the best TV's at the time will almost certainly always have better colors than their PC monitor counterparts.

My budget is usually capped at 3k for televisions.

I haven't seen any examples of a Sony TV doing super resolution in games or anyone doing any articles on it. The only references I've come across are just marketing references (you can find upscaling marketing speak for my LG TV as well with before/after pictures but I know for a fact it's not anywhere close to DLSS quality in games).

If you have any examples of this online anywhere, let me know. Maybe even ask HU or Digital Foundry to do a comparison.
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Old Mar 8, 2020, 03:25 PM   #235
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I'm in the same boat. I figure the 8K TV's will be able to do 4K 120hz and 8K60hz. They will have the latest HDMI. It's going to be a while before the technology matures and prices drop. As for the upscaling, if you read a review of sony's latest they will all pretty much say that Sony is the king of video processing and upscale. I don't have any comparisons but I think you might be misinterpreting what I am saying. The difference is in motion due to the processor drawing extra pixels in to the frame at the edges of objects to make them maintain clarity while moving. You would have a hard time seeing it in a still picture. I would think the AA would be possibly noticeable but more in motion to remove shimmering. Also the overall image quality between panels makes it hard to judge the differences purely on video processing alone.

The very top end always costs 5K to 6K if you are looking for 75 inch panels though. I don't see that changing much as 8K roles out.
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Old Mar 8, 2020, 03:37 PM   #236
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Back on topic, I don't know that AA is all that good of an example. Aliasing is an unintentional effect at displaying the image through a panel at differing resolutions. I consider AA to be an effect that attempts to make the image look like the developers intended it to look in the first place. Developers don't make the game to look aliased on purpose.
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Old Mar 8, 2020, 04:29 PM   #237
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I don't used AA in most games, because I don't like the blurriness it brings with it, no matter what implementation you use.. This wasn't the case years ago when resolutions where much lower and the jagged edges where ugly and a huge distraction. But with the current high resolutions, this isn't the case, so the blurriness AA to me, is a distraction more so than the jaggies that you can barely see due to higher resolutions. It's entirely possible that with 8k panels there will be no need for AA of any kind. Okay, it's more like a hope.

Sharpness filters where developed to counter the reduction of image quality from video compression, various other filters, which includes AA, and hardware deficiencies be it the Monitor/TV or GPU. I believe it's there for correction purposes, to bring the image back inline with the intended look.

In the past, most games when you started them for the first time, they loaded default settings based on what the developers designed the game to look like at a minimum acceptable frame rate. But now days, the default setting for most games, are based off what hardware you are running, sometimes just the GPU, others both the CPU and GPU. Each hardware level defaults are optimized to meet their desired quality that is tied to a minimum acceptable frame rate a that default setting. So someone with a 1080 will have different default settings than someone with a 2080ti, and each one is most likely optimized differently with different image quality in mind from the developers.

That's my take on it.


Thanks for the input on the game, I like those types of games as well, so I may have to invest in it.
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Old Mar 9, 2020, 08:18 PM   #238
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I wonder why all those res scaling tech have resolution and aspect ratio restriction at all, disappointing.
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Old Mar 9, 2020, 08:38 PM   #239
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Some more screenshots from Youngblood. One is 4k and the other is DLSS 4k. Mixed up here to see who can tell a difference between native and 4k, which one they think looks better/worse, etc.. without giving the labels away.

Framerate counter removed from top right corner (was about to post these with them there, would have been a dead giveaway).

Uber settings with Ray Tracing, TSSA8X / DLSS Quality, no resolution scaling, no chromatic abberation.













Last edited by Exposed : Mar 9, 2020 at 09:06 PM.
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Old Mar 10, 2020, 07:58 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exposed View Post
Some more screenshots from Youngblood. One is 4k and the other is DLSS 4k. Mixed up here to see who can tell a difference between native and 4k, which one they think looks better/worse, etc.. without giving the labels away.

Framerate counter removed from top right corner (was about to post these with them there, would have been a dead giveaway).

Uber settings with Ray Tracing, TSSA8X / DLSS Quality, no resolution scaling, no chromatic abberation.













1 DLSS
2 full 4k
3 DLSS
4 full 4k


Not an expert opinion, just my lucky guess :-) Both look great.
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