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Old Aug 23, 2002, 08:43 AM   #1
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Skywa|ker
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Angry Christians kidnapped/murdered in Philippines

Just saw this...
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Muslim Rebels Behead Two Christians in Philippines

August 22, 2002 09:08 AM ET


JOLO, Philippines (Reuters) - Muslim guerrillas in the Philippines have beheaded two Christian preachers in a grisly response to government claims that they are on the run and close to defeat.

The riposte from the Abu Sayyaf, linked by Washington to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network, came less than three weeks after U.S. special forces ended a six-month counter-terrorism exercise designed to help local troops defeat their movement.

Officials said the heads were found on Thursday wrapped in plastic in the main town of Patikul on southern Jolo island, two days after the Abu Sayyaf seized the two male preachers and six other hostages. One head was in a fruit stall in a public market.

"This is what will happen to those who do not believe in Allah...This is part of our jihad (holy war)," said a note found near one of the heads of the preachers, who were Filipinos from the Christian-dominated mainland city of Zamboanga.

The army reacted by pounding suspected rebel lairs near Patikul with rockets and cannon.

"This is a barbaric act by a barbaric group trying to propagate their religion," Jolo army commander Brigadier Romeo Tolentino said.

Philippine President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo said in June and July the military had substantially reduced the capabilities and strengths of what is the country's most extreme Muslim group.

Her claim followed a gun battle in the Zamboanga peninsula in which senior Abu Sayyaf leader Abu Sabaya was believed killed.

"We condemn the atrocities committed by this group," Philippine Press Secretary Ignacio Bunye said simply, when asked by reporters how Arroyo took the latest Abu Sayyaf challenge.

The Abu Sayyaf says it is fighting for a Muslim homeland in the south of the mainly Roman Catholic Philippines, but its activities are mostly restricted to kidnap for ransom.

It freed two of the six hostages seized on Tuesday, both Muslims. It currently holds seven hostages, including three Indonesian seamen captured by pirates and handed over to it.

The group beheaded an American hostage and at least two Filipinos last year.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

Authorities initially described the hostages as cosmetics sales agents, but military commander Tolentino said they had been wrongly identified and were Jehovah's Witnesses. He also said the hostages, all local residents, included four women.

Two hostages -- both Muslims -- were freed, but the four women were still in captivity, he added.

Tolentino said both the dead had been identified by their families. One head was found by residents in a fruit stall at a public market and the other on a dirt road leading to military headquarters on southern Jolo, a largely Muslim area 960 km (600 miles) south of Manila.

Officials said the murdered men and the four women still held hostage were all residents of Zamboanga. They had been carrying Bibles and Christian leaflets when they were kidnapped.

The Abu Sayyaf fiercely opposes efforts by Christian missionaries to evangelize Muslim areas and demands the removal of Christian crosses there.

Jolo, a lawless island bristling with armed gangs, is dominated by Muslims. It is a stronghold of the Abu Sayyaf, but home to other groups fighting Manila's rule, bandits and pirates.

The United States has linked the Abu Sayyaf to the al Qaeda network, which it blames for the September 11 suicide hijack attacks on New York and Washington.

The latest abductions came less than three weeks after U.S. troops formally ended maneuveres on Basilan and nearby.

Several hundred U.S. troops remain on Basilan, about 100 km (60 miles) northeast of Jolo, performing civic or medical duties.

In June this year, the Philippine military rescued American missionary Gracia Burnham from more than a year of captivity by the Abu Sayyaf, but her husband and a Filipina nurse also held hostage were killed in the fighting.

An American tourist held hostage with the Burnhams, Guillermo Sobero, was beheaded by the group last year.

Pirates seized four Indonesian crewmen of a Singaporean-owned tugboat on June 17. One escaped. The kidnappers turned the other three over to the Abu Sayyaf.

The guerrillas made some $20 million in 2000 from ransoms for Western tourists, whom they kidnapped from a Malaysian diving resort and later took to Jolo.
______________

(sarcasm)
My, my, what a brave show of courage against their oppressors. Murdering innocent, devotedly pacifistic bible students. I'm sure they must feel like real men, now.
(/sarcasm)


Seriously, when I read things like this it tends to make me want to break a few commandments. I just hope the women are released unharmed, although I'm realistic about what they're probably going through. Makes me sick.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 10:03 AM   #2
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after seeing a video footage of a hostage being held by a muslim rebel group, i've changed my views on this kind of stuff.

now i know what they're being treated like, and i feel more sympathy for them

taking innocent civillians as hostages and then treating them well and releasing them on ransom is fine, they're just trying to earn money the only way they know how.

but taking innocent civillians, treating them like ****, them murdering them is totally wrong.

i dont care what the cause is. innocents are innocents, they don't deserve these kinds of attacks.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 10:13 AM   #3
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this world is messed up. people are always blaming "Christians" for a lot of violence when in reality it is being caused by people whom have no idea what Christianity really means...... Muslims believe that anyone who is not of the same faith they are are infidels and need to be killed if they do not convert........
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 10:39 AM   #4
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Becareful who you call "Christian". Jehovah Witnesses wouldn't like that.

That being said: I feel for the families.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 11:06 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yeuemmaimai
this world is messed up. people are always blaming "Christians" for a lot of violence when in reality it is being caused by people whom have no idea what Christianity really means...... Muslims believe that anyone who is not of the same faith they are are infidels and need to be killed if they do not convert........
Yeah, every muslim is like that
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 11:46 AM   #6
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Originally posted by Jasef
Yeah, every muslim is like that
Only the ones who don't actually follow the true doctrines and follow a strange perverted version instead.

Chris.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 12:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by mizzer
Becareful who you call "Christian". Jehovah Witnesses wouldn't like that.

That being said: I feel for the families.
Mizzer...


Actually, I am a J.W., and we consider ourselves to be Christians. (We believe that Jesus was God's son, who came to earth to 'buy back' the perfect life that Adam gave up, thus giving everyone a chance to be redeemed. Similar in many ways to common Christianity, but we don't accept ideas like the Trinity, Saints, the Pope, etc...)

This situation hits closer to home for me, as we all consider ourselves to be 'brothers' and 'sisters' in our religion, so hearing about what has happened/is happening to these people has got me rather upset.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 12:08 PM   #8
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The Moslems are 'paying back' Christians for all their fun little activities they did through the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

Payback is always a *****. Especially in Sudan.

While I understand this resentment, I certainly don't agree stooping to such a low level.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 12:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yeuemmaimai
this world is messed up. people are always blaming "Christians" for a lot of violence when in reality it is being caused by people whom have no idea what Christianity really means...... Muslims believe that anyone who is not of the same faith they are are infidels and need to be killed if they do not convert........
Yeah the religion isn't as bad it's the followers who are f*cked up. Well that's what happens when you tell people to murder infidels AND on top of that say it's the word of God (yeah right) And I've learned to accept it not as intention but as a severe psychological issue brought on by a perverse and extreme interpretation of Islam. I mean you know you have serious psychological issues when you call God merciful one minute and saying hell wipe out an entire race of the face of the earth the next.

This world needs serious therapy
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 12:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skywa|ker
Mizzer...


Actually, I am a J.W., and we consider ourselves to be Christians. (We believe that Jesus was God's son, who came to earth to 'buy back' the perfect life that Adam gave up, thus giving everyone a chance to be redeemed. Similar in many ways to common Christianity, but we don't accept ideas like the Trinity, Saints, the Pope, etc...)

This situation hits closer to home for me, as we all consider ourselves to be 'brothers' and 'sisters' in our religion, so hearing about what has happened/is happening to these people has got me rather upset.
I know this is off-topic, but why is it considered a great taboo if a J.W. accepts a blood transfusion?

Chris.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 12:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cyborg007
Yeah the religion isn't as bad it's the followers who are f*cked up. Well that's what happens when you tell people to murder infidels AND on top of that say it's the word of God (yeah right) And I've learned to accept it not as intention but as a severe psychological issue brought on by a perverse and extreme interpretation of Islam. I mean you know you have serious psychological issues when you call God merciful one minute and saying hell wipe out an entire race of the face of the earth the next.
They seem to forget the bit where if a person is following a moral God, it is the same God but under a different name. The whole Wipe out the Infidels thing is intended to apply to cannibals and such.

Quote:
This world needs serious therapy
Agreed wholeheartedly.

Chris.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 12:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by cbsboyer


I know this is off-topic, but why is it considered a great taboo if a J.W. accepts a blood transfusion?

Chris.

Chris...


A good question. I'll give you the short version; several scriptures in both the old and new testament note that blood is considered sacred to God, that once it has left the body it should be disposed of. It specifically states that we should 'abstain from blood', also mentioning not consuming blood. I should note that we do accept all other forms of medical treatment, and will accept blood substitutes. (Personally, I'm hoping for the day when artificial blood hits the market... we wouldn't have a problem with that...) It's probably the most touchy subject about our religion for most people, as they think we don't care about our lives (or our children's lives) if we won't accept a blood transfusion. The reality is the opposite; we care very much about our lives, but we feel that following God's law is more important in this case. Frankly, in 99% of the cases where a normal procedure would include a blood transfusion, there are accepted alternative medical procedures that can be used instead. I hope this clears it up a bit for you.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 01:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skywa|ker


Mizzer...


Actually, I am a J.W., and we consider ourselves to be Christians. (We believe that Jesus was God's son, who came to earth to 'buy back' the perfect life that Adam gave up, thus giving everyone a chance to be redeemed. Similar in many ways to common Christianity, but we don't accept ideas like the Trinity, Saints, the Pope, etc...)

This situation hits closer to home for me, as we all consider ourselves to be 'brothers' and 'sisters' in our religion, so hearing about what has happened/is happening to these people has got me rather upset.
Really? I got chewed out by a JW elder for insinuating that. Are YOU a JW elder?

You also do not believe that Jesus was God in the flesh. For me, there can be no redemption if that is not true.

Ack, let's not start a debate here, huh?
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 01:11 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by cbsboyer


They seem to forget the bit where if a person is following a moral God, it is the same God but under a different name.
No. That's not true.

I AM a therapist but I still know the world needs Truth (with a capital "T") and not therapy.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 01:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by mizzer


Really? I got chewed out by a JW elder for insinuating that. Are YOU a JW elder?

You also do not believe that Jesus was God in the flesh. For me, there can be no redemption if that is not true.

Ack, let's not start a debate here, huh?
No, I'm not an elder, but I've been a baptized J.W. for 19 years now, and it's been my religion from birth. I imagine there is some point we're missing here, or there was a mis-communication, but my statement is correct.

Yes, you are right; we don't believe in the Trinity. We believe that God and Jesus are two seperate beings, but yes, we believe that he was born onto the earth through a fleshly woman, and spent his human life as a fleshly man. (Otherwise, he wouldn't be an 'equal' of the perfect life Adam lost.) Hope that helps clear it up. If not, ask away... don't worry, I won't take it personally... <grin>
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 01:43 PM   #16
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So you're an Unitarist? No believe in the trinity doctrine?



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Old Aug 23, 2002, 01:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by ss1
So you're an Unitarist? No believe in the trinity doctrine?



ss1.
Well, I've never heard that term, but no, we don't believe in the trinity doctrine. There are simply too many places in the Bible where Jesus refers to his 'father in heaven' as a seperate entity for me to believe this teaching. I've done a LOT of personal research on it, and all of the evidence points to two seperate beings... not 'three in one'.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 02:11 PM   #18
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The Philipines is like the Middle East, the southern part is Muslim and the northern part is Christian or some other "white" religion.



Solution: Napalm
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 02:18 PM   #19
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I think of the Trinity like this:

Ice, liquid, vapor are all "states" of water. Their characteristics are different, yet, they are of the same substance.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 02:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by mizzer
I think of the Trinity like this:

Ice, liquid, vapor are all "states" of water. Their characteristics are different, yet, they are of the same substance.
Mizzer...


I've heard that one, but if you apply this to a personality, rather than something inanimate, you have a disorder, no? (eg. split personality) Jesus, when asked about the timeline for events to come, responded that no-one knew the answer, even he himself didn't know... only his father in heaven knew. To me, that says his father was a seperate person, seperate mind. He repeatedly prayed to his father in heaven, especially during his last days alive... if he were one and the same, why would he bother? (Sorry, hope this doesn't sound like I'm on the attack... don't mean it that way...)
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 02:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skywa|ker


Mizzer...


I've heard that one, but if you apply this to a personality, rather than something inanimate, you have a disorder, no? (eg. split personality)
Who said the personalities were different? No I.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 05:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yeuemmaimai
this world is messed up. people are always blaming "Christians" for a lot of violence when in reality it is being caused by people whom have no idea what Christianity really means...... Muslims believe that anyone who is not of the same faith they are are infidels and need to be killed if they do not convert........
And I suppose you know everything about Islam, right?
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 05:33 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skywa|ker



Chris...


A good question. I'll give you the short version; several scriptures in both the old and new testament note that blood is considered sacred to God, that once it has left the body it should be disposed of. It specifically states that we should 'abstain from blood', also mentioning not consuming blood. I should note that we do accept all other forms of medical treatment, and will accept blood substitutes. (Personally, I'm hoping for the day when artificial blood hits the market... we wouldn't have a problem with that...) It's probably the most touchy subject about our religion for most people, as they think we don't care about our lives (or our children's lives) if we won't accept a blood transfusion. The reality is the opposite; we care very much about our lives, but we feel that following God's law is more important in this case. Frankly, in 99% of the cases where a normal procedure would include a blood transfusion, there are accepted alternative medical procedures that can be used instead. I hope this clears it up a bit for you.
Don't we have some blood substitutes? Of course, they aren't common and it still needs to go through some more testing, but there's at least three major kinds that I know of, a hemoglobin-based one being one of them.

And to everyone talking about the Trinity, the fact is we won't know until we're in heaven ourselves. We're looking at it from the view of the world we know now. It's the same thing with people questioning Adam's perfect world, like what if he tripped on a rock and died? The problem is, in a perfect world, Adam wouldn't do that and we're looking it from our view of the world right now which is full of greed, arrogance, money, violence, and politicians.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 06:06 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Killdozer
The Philipines is like the Middle East, the southern part is Muslim and the northern part is Christian or some other "white" religion.



Solution: Napalm
Whaha, yes, the sophisticated solution. Let's create another bloodshed, kilingl a shitload of people and facing international humiliation again. Good call man.
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Old Aug 23, 2002, 07:25 PM   #25
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Whaha, yes, the sophisticated solution. Let's create another bloodshed, kilingl a shitload of people and facing international humiliation again. Good call man.
Actually, there'd be suprisingly little blood. All the wounds would be cauterized

Seriously, I agree with you. Violence is the last resort of a simple mind.

Chris.
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Old Aug 24, 2002, 12:42 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by billyhansome

Don't we have some blood substitutes? Of course, they aren't common and it still needs to go through some more testing, but there's at least three major kinds that I know of, a hemoglobin-based one being one of them.

And to everyone talking about the Trinity, the fact is we won't know until we're in heaven ourselves. We're looking at it from the view of the world we know now. It's the same thing with people questioning Adam's perfect world, like what if he tripped on a rock and died? The problem is, in a perfect world, Adam wouldn't do that and we're looking it from our view of the world right now which is full of greed, arrogance, money, violence, and politicians.
Yes, there are blood substitutes that we will accept, and I believe there is even testing going on right now on a new, artificial blood replacement; when this is fully developed and approved, my mind will rest a lot easier. Many people don't know this, however, and get the wrong impression that Jehovah's Witnesses are religious nuts. (The medical T.V. dramas that have features plots regarding the J.W. blood issue in the past years have almost all been badly done... particularly the 'Chicago Hope' episode from a couple of years back... that one was so far off the mark I almost shut it off. There was one British show a couple of years back that did a good job... it presented the actual stance we take, and handled it pretty well... aside from that one time, though, a lot of shows have been really sensationalistic, to the point of ridiculous.)

As for the Trinity, and going to heaven, I think if you examine the Bible for yourself, you can come to a logical conclusion about whether god is a trinity or not. The problem is that a lot of people just go on tradition, and don't really read their bibles. My grandmother was a Catholic, but when she read her bible and had questions about it, her priest was unwilling to go into the bible for answers. She found them herself, and became one of Jehovah's Witnesses, because she found the answers she was looking for within that religion. I too have found that all my questions have been answered by that same religion, and so I'm happy to be one.

Whether or not a particular religion is right for you depends entirely on you... when it comes down to it, we all decide for ourselves how to live our lives. The problem is, when it comes to religion, many people just don't care, or can't be bothered to investigate. If you do investigate, however, you might be very surprised at what you find in the bible. It answers every question you could have, if you're willing to accept the answers. I'm won't go into the Trinity details right now, unless you'd like me to, but suffice it to say that if you look at all the scriptural evidence there is in the bible, it becomes pretty clear that God and Jesus are not one and the same.

Anyway, enough for now... <grin>
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Old Aug 24, 2002, 01:55 PM   #27
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I really think that the muslims are wrong here.

[Flameproof Underwear]

We must not forget by who Islam was founded. Mohamed was not a very holy person. Actually he was a bandit who robbed caravans. Then he decided to invent his own religon and combined christianity into a radical religon. Forget the rest cause I rest my case

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Old Aug 24, 2002, 09:37 PM   #28
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I have to disagree here. As MLK said, violence is the language of the unheard.
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Old Aug 24, 2002, 10:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skywa|ker
As for the Trinity, and going to heaven, I think if you examine the Bible for yourself, you can come to a logical conclusion about whether god is a trinity or not.


Out of curiosity, what place does Jesus have? God's first commandment is to have no other gods than him, but Jesus tells people that they can heal the sick and drive out demons in his name, even telling people that only by believing in him can they have eternal life. Personally, I think that a being of His power would be fully capable of splitting a portion of His attention towards creating another personality, whether temporarily or permanently.

We consider a split personality a flaw because it is not normal for we limited beings. It may not be a flaw for Him.

Quote:
The problem is that a lot of people just go on tradition, and don't really read their bibles.


Agreed. There are far too many people who believe solely because their parents did.
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Old Aug 24, 2002, 10:38 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by FeL1x
I really think that the muslims are wrong here.

[Flameproof Underwear]

We must not forget by who Islam was founded. Mohamed was not a very holy person. Actually he was a bandit who robbed caravans. Then he decided to invent his own religon and combined christianity into a radical religon. Forget the rest cause I rest my case

[/Flameproof Underwear]

You know so little....

A shame really. It's pitty about your igonorance.


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