The Official "We want Super-Sampling Anti-Aliasing" thread. Read if you want to help

spine · Dec 23, 2003, 01:03 PM

Just thought I'd make a dedicated thread about this method of Anti-Aliasing (AA) that many people here clearly would like to see in a future driver set. If you already know all about this, then skip down the page to the last section

Background (for peeps who wanna know what this is all about)

The current method of AA used in ATI's Catalyst drivers is "Multi-Sampling Anti Aliasing" (MSAA). Without going into explaining why, this method only anti-aliases edges of polygons and does not do any processing on the inside of a polygon. This means that there is less texture blurring and also means quite a significant performance boost over other methods since it does alot less processing.

The problem:
The unfortunate negative effect of MSAA is that alpha textures end up very aliased. Alpha textures are just textures than have sections of transparency where you can see through parts of it. Typically, alpha textures are used in games for things like fence gratings, tree leaves etc. You might think that high levels of Anisotropic filtering would solve this, but it does not, and that is not a very efficient solution either.

The solution
The simple solution is to apply a "Super-Sampling Anti Aliasing" method. Again, without explaining it, the effect of this method is that EVERYTHING on screen is anti aliased. This of course means alpha textures are properly smoothed and also means that AA will still take effect when smart shaders are deployed. For instance, in Max payne 2, when you enter bullet time, with SSAA, the AA will not be 'switched off'. The only negative with this form of AA is, of course, a decrease in performance.

MSAA. Look at the tree leaves, they are all jaggy and nasty looking.

SSAA rendition by Exxtreme. Notice the tree leaves are now smooth and blend with the sky.

pics by Exxtreme

SSAA is already supported in hardware!

We know for a FACT that SSAA is embedded in the hardware of the Radeon family of cards. The only thing keeping us from using it is the lack of support in the driver. Check out this driver info page for the Mac OS drivers;
http://www2.ati.com/drivers/radeon_readme_nov_2003.html
At the bottom in the game problem section we see both MSAA and SSAA mentioned clearly demonstrating their existence.

So if the Mac has SSAA, why don't us Windows users have the same?

Well, it's pretty obviously due to marketing. If ATI were to provide an option for SSAA, it'd perform slower. People would then compare this method of AA with the competition and thus ATI's cards would be seen to be performing alot worse than they otherwise would.

So what are we gunna do about it?

Simple, we should ALL (and yes, that means YOU!) goto the driver feedback section at ATI's site and make a request for this feature.

To facilitate this, I've written below a paragraph which you can copy and paste into the relevent section at ATI's site. So it's like this;

1. Goto ATI's driver feedback section: http://apps.ati.com/driverfeedback/index.asp
2. Fill in your name and other details neccessary.
3. Select "Feature Request" for the "Issue Type" option.
4. Copy and paste the following paragraph into the "Issue Description" section;

Request for SSAA.

The Mac OS drivers support Super-Sampling Anti-Aliasing as well as the standard MSAA and so I think it would be a great addition to the windows drivers if the option to choose between the two was available on this platform.

Thankyou for reading.

5. Actually get off your butt and do this! Don't expect everyone else to do it. YOU, yes YOU need to do it as well. This is a very popular forum and if as many people who read this thread make the request it'll most certainly be noticed.

Vially · Dec 23, 2003, 01:16 PM

Done. 1 (Everyone should put a number in his post AFTER REPORTING TO ATI to see exactly how many people actually did this)

evilchickenking · Dec 23, 2003, 01:26 PM

done. 2

i don't like it when a company says the product can do something but decides later that i don't have the compitence or capacity to choose for my self if i should turn on!

spine · Dec 23, 2003, 01:57 PM

done 3.

Well, did it before, but signing to add +1 to the count. Come on people! We need at LEAST 50 posts. There's easily enough people here to do it and it'll benefit everyone.

C}{$ · Dec 23, 2003, 01:57 PM

Added my support. 4

1c3d0g · Dec 23, 2003, 02:00 PM

Done. 5

VW_Factor · Dec 23, 2003, 02:04 PM

6..

However.. I think the user should have a choice of the AA applied to the game, in the control panel.. Let the user decide what to use..

BENCHMARKMAN · Dec 23, 2003, 02:09 PM

Done 7

Sasquach · Dec 23, 2003, 02:13 PM

I doned it...8

It appears it can fix abuncha FSAA problems with games and Multisampling. Looking at the mac release notes lots of "problem using MSAA" issues was fixed by just saying "Use SSAA"

Gizmo · Dec 23, 2003, 02:25 PM

done 9

Nice to see a properly thought out thread for this issue
well done

Sabadin · Dec 23, 2003, 02:38 PM

Done 10

Immortal LuD · Dec 23, 2003, 02:47 PM

Done! 11

Dem2k · Dec 23, 2003, 02:53 PM

Done make my ff7 look leet thank you very much.

jamesclarke555 · Dec 23, 2003, 02:54 PM

Great idea spine...Done 11

black hole sun · Dec 23, 2003, 02:55 PM

Done, 12. Though it should be 14 if some people would learn to count

demalion · Dec 23, 2003, 02:55 PM

Done, 13.

Exxtreme · Dec 23, 2003, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spine
This means that there is less texture blurring

Errm, SSAA doesn't blur textures if the driver does handle the LOD-bias correctly. With the right LOD-bias the textures are sharper. Some old voodoo5-drivers had determinated a false LOD-bias so the textures were blurry.

Done 14.

Here 2 screenshots:

Gothic 1 with MSAA:
http://exxtreme78.bei.t-online.de/4xRGMSAA16xtri-AF.png

Gothic 1 with (photochopped) SSAA:
http://exxtreme78.bei.t-online.de/4xOGSSAA16xtri-AF.png

Edit:
http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulle...hreadid=113782

Dem2k · Dec 23, 2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by black_hole_sun
Done, 12. Though it should be 14 if some people would learn to count

if you're refering to me, my "maths,mind" switchs off @ 8:00pm

jamesclarke555 · Dec 23, 2003, 03:12 PM

I've also got about 5 of my m8's to do this

SH64 · Dec 23, 2003, 03:15 PM

Done , 15?

hodgeac · Dec 23, 2003, 03:31 PM

done...18.

|)irtyD!Ck · Dec 23, 2003, 03:47 PM

Done.... sorry lost count :P

Vially · Dec 23, 2003, 04:00 PM

|)irtyD!Ck, Done, 19.

spine · Dec 23, 2003, 04:44 PM

Thanks for all the replies. About 26 so far methinks, that's including jamesclarke555's 5 mates and himself.

I've also made a post at overclockers.com forums:
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=255859

Should get a bunch more people to pester ATI about.

Also edited the first post to include pics by exxtreme to illustrate the prob (hope you don't mind dude

)

bakunin · Dec 23, 2003, 05:50 PM

done.

Rastusman · Dec 23, 2003, 06:05 PM

Done. ( Insert number here)

ozzfreak · Dec 23, 2003, 06:12 PM

Done.

ozz

Star_Hunter · Dec 23, 2003, 06:43 PM

HENNESSY · Dec 23, 2003, 08:01 PM

bloodbob · Dec 23, 2003, 08:02 PM

Done now can we get a thread like this for F-Buffer?
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...eadid=33732424

Dec 23, 2003, 01:03 PM	#1	Advertisement (Guests Only) Login or Register to remove this ad
spine Radeon R700 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 880	The Official "We want Super-Sampling Anti-Aliasing" thread. Read if you want to help Just thought I'd make a dedicated thread about this method of Anti-Aliasing (AA) that many people here clearly would like to see in a future driver set. If you already know all about this, then skip down the page to the last section Background (for peeps who wanna know what this is all about) The current method of AA used in ATI's Catalyst drivers is "Multi-Sampling Anti Aliasing" (MSAA). Without going into explaining why, this method only anti-aliases edges of polygons and does not do any processing on the inside of a polygon. This means that there is less texture blurring and also means quite a significant performance boost over other methods since it does alot less processing. The problem: The unfortunate negative effect of MSAA is that alpha textures end up very aliased. Alpha textures are just textures than have sections of transparency where you can see through parts of it. Typically, alpha textures are used in games for things like fence gratings, tree leaves etc. You might think that high levels of Anisotropic filtering would solve this, but it does not, and that is not a very efficient solution either. The solution The simple solution is to apply a "Super-Sampling Anti Aliasing" method. Again, without explaining it, the effect of this method is that EVERYTHING on screen is anti aliased. This of course means alpha textures are properly smoothed and also means that AA will still take effect when smart shaders are deployed. For instance, in Max payne 2, when you enter bullet time, with SSAA, the AA will not be 'switched off'. The only negative with this form of AA is, of course, a decrease in performance. MSAA. Look at the tree leaves, they are all jaggy and nasty looking. SSAA rendition by Exxtreme. Notice the tree leaves are now smooth and blend with the sky. pics by Exxtreme SSAA is already supported in hardware! We know for a FACT that SSAA is embedded in the hardware of the Radeon family of cards. The only thing keeping us from using it is the lack of support in the driver. Check out this driver info page for the Mac OS drivers; http://www2.ati.com/drivers/radeon_readme_nov_2003.html At the bottom in the game problem section we see both MSAA and SSAA mentioned clearly demonstrating their existence. So if the Mac has SSAA, why don't us Windows users have the same? Well, it's pretty obviously due to marketing. If ATI were to provide an option for SSAA, it'd perform slower. People would then compare this method of AA with the competition and thus ATI's cards would be seen to be performing alot worse than they otherwise would. So what are we gunna do about it? Simple, we should ALL (and yes, that means YOU!) goto the driver feedback section at ATI's site and make a request for this feature. To facilitate this, I've written below a paragraph which you can copy and paste into the relevent section at ATI's site. So it's like this; 1. Goto ATI's driver feedback section: http://apps.ati.com/driverfeedback/index.asp 2. Fill in your name and other details neccessary. 3. Select "Feature Request" for the "Issue Type" option. 4. Copy and paste the following paragraph into the "Issue Description" section; Request for SSAA. The Mac OS drivers support Super-Sampling Anti-Aliasing as well as the standard MSAA and so I think it would be a great addition to the windows drivers if the option to choose between the two was available on this platform. Thankyou for reading. 5. Actually get off your butt and do this! Don't expect everyone else to do it. YOU, yes YOU need to do it as well. This is a very popular forum and if as many people who read this thread make the request it'll most certainly be noticed. __________________ Opteron 146 @ 2920mhz, 1.60v 292 HTT, 194mhz memory Dangerden RBX Water Block, 22"x 17" Car Radiator with 7 80mm fans, Eheim 1250 pump DFI Lanparty nF3 Ultra-D Sapphire X800XL 466/567 (volt modded) with modified InnovaGraph-O-Matik Water Block 2xRAID-0 Array with Maxtor 160gb Disks Windows XP Professional SP2 Last edited by spine : Dec 23, 2003 at 04:40 PM.

Dec 23, 2003, 01:26 PM	#3
evilchickenking Radeon R600 Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: N. California Posts: 643	done. 2 i don't like it when a company says the product can do something but decides later that i don't have the compitence or capacity to choose for my self if i should turn on! __________________ Antec TX635 \|\| DFI Lanparty UT NF4 Ultra-D \|\| AMD 64 San Diego 4000+ @ (11 X 275) 3.03ghz \|\| 2 X 512mb PQI PC3200 \|\| Leadtek PX6600GT 128mb \|\| Chaintech AV710 \|\| Seagate 200gb & 300gb \|\| Fortron Blue Storm 500W Last edited by evilchickenking : Dec 23, 2003 at 01:33 PM.

Dec 23, 2003, 01:57 PM	#4
spine Radeon R700 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 880	done 3. Well, did it before, but signing to add +1 to the count. Come on people! We need at LEAST 50 posts. There's easily enough people here to do it and it'll benefit everyone. __________________ Opteron 146 @ 2920mhz, 1.60v 292 HTT, 194mhz memory Dangerden RBX Water Block, 22"x 17" Car Radiator with 7 80mm fans, Eheim 1250 pump DFI Lanparty nF3 Ultra-D Sapphire X800XL 466/567 (volt modded) with modified InnovaGraph-O-Matik Water Block 2xRAID-0 Array with Maxtor 160gb Disks Windows XP Professional SP2

Dec 23, 2003, 01:57 PM	#5
C}{$ Radeon R420 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: monkey land Posts: 204	Added my support. 4 __________________ C}{$ Web-Hosting from just £5/$8 a year!

VW_Factor's System Specs
Motherboard	ABit VH6-II
CPU	PIII - 1GHz
Graphics	Geforce2
Memory	256M PC100
Cooling Solution	Heatsinks
Display	Dell 15" CRT
Soundcard & Speakers	Kinyo
Hard-Drives	20G Maxtor
Optical Drives	CD Burner
Power Supply	300Watt Generic
Case	AT Compatible
Input Devices	Keyboard, Mouse, Microphone
Operating System	Windows ME
Extra Info	FTW!

Dec 23, 2003, 01:16 PM	#2
Vially Radeon R200 Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 87	Done. 1 (Everyone should put a number in his post AFTER REPORTING TO ATI to see exactly how many people actually did this)

Dec 23, 2003, 02:00 PM	#6
1c3d0g Go away! Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 13	Done. 5

Dec 23, 2003, 02:09 PM	#8
BENCHMARKMAN Radeon Caribbean Islands Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 4,059	Done 7 __________________ Intel Core i7 920 MSI Twin FROZR 560 TI Windows 8

Dec 23, 2003, 02:13 PM	#9
Sasquach 2/10 will not bang Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Cowtown Posts: 27,582	I doned it...8 It appears it can fix abuncha FSAA problems with games and Multisampling. Looking at the mac release notes lots of "problem using MSAA" issues was fixed by just saying "Use SSAA" __________________ ------Squachbox 2022------ Gigabyte 3D Aurora 570 full size aluminum chassis PC Power & Cooling Silencer Quad Blue 750watt PSU AMD Ryzen 5 2600X @ 3.6ghz Asus Prime B450M A/CSM 2 x 8GB G-Skill DDR4 2666 Dell E2210 (22" widescreen) monitor + Asus Dual Radeon RX 6600 Seagate Barracuda 500gb 7200.12 SATA Seagate Barracuda 2TB SATA Sennheiser PC350 Xense edition headset

Sasquach's System Specs
Motherboard	Gigabyte MA790FXT-UD5P
CPU	AMD PhenomII X4 955 @ 3.2ghz
Graphics	ATI Radeon HD 5870 branded by Asus
Memory	4GB DDR3 Patriot Viper series low latency
Cooling Solution	Zalman CPS9900LED
Display	Samsung 205BW 21" Widescreen LCD
Soundcard & Speakers	Asus Xonar Xense, Logitech Z5300 5.1, Sennheiser PC350 'xense edition'
Hard-Drives	500gb Seagate Barracuda 7200.12, 500gb Western Digital Caviar Black 7200
Optical Drives	LG Multi Blue Blu ray Writer and DVD Writer/rewriter
Power Supply	PC Power & Cooling Silencer blue 750w
Case	Gigabyte 3d Aurora
Input Devices	MS Mouse/keyboard, Xbox 360 wireless gamepad, Saitek wireless gamepad
Operating System	Windows 7 64bit
Extra Info	This is the Squachbox

Dec 23, 2003, 02:25 PM	#10
Gizmo Radeon R600 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: U.K. Posts: 605	done 9 Nice to see a properly thought out thread for this issue well done

Dec 23, 2003, 02:38 PM	#11
Sabadin Radeon R600 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Scarberia Posts: 611	Done 10

Sabadin's System Specs
Motherboard	ASUS B-450F Gaming
CPU	Ryzen 2600
Graphics	MSI RX 570 Armor 8G
Memory	16GB Corsair LPX DDR4-3000C15

Dec 23, 2003, 02:47 PM	#12
Immortal LuD Rage3D Veteran Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Daytona Beach, FL Posts: 1,122	Done! 11

Dem2k's System Specs
Motherboard	Asus ROG Hero IV
CPU	Haswel lI7-4770k @ 4.6ghz
Graphics	Zotac 680 GTX + EVGA 680 SC 2-way SLI
Memory	16gb Corsair Dominator
Cooling Solution	K2 Mount Doom
Display	Asus VG278H 27
Soundcard & Speakers	Asus Xonar D2X / Home Speaker & AMP setup
Hard-Drives	Intel 520 240g SSD, // 2x Samsungs spinpoint 1tb In RAID 0 array
Optical Drives	LG DVD-RAM DRIVE
Power Supply	Antec CP-850
Case	Antec 1200
Input Devices	Roccat Kone V2,Logitech G15 Keyboard, Wired Xbox 360 gamepad
Operating System	Microsoft Windows 8 X64 Pro

Dec 23, 2003, 02:54 PM	#14
jamesclarke555 Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: England Posts: 397	Great idea spine...Done 11

Dec 23, 2003, 02:55 PM	#15
black hole sun Hey guys! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: California Posts: 5,233	Done, 12. Though it should be 14 if some people would learn to count __________________ The inhabitants of the earth are of two sorts: Those with brains, but no religion, And those with religion, but no brains. -- Abul Ala al-Ma`arri, 1057 A.D.

Dec 23, 2003, 02:55 PM	#16
demalion Radeon R700 Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: CT Posts: 995	making a baker's dozen Done, 13. __________________ Main System Pentium 2.4C @ 3.0 GHz - FSB 250x4, 1024MB PC3200 DDR, Asus P4P800 2x WD360GD (Raptor) SATA RAID Windows XP ATI 9800 XT 256MB Terratec Aureon Space 7.1 FOLDING@HOME for Team Rage3D

Dec 23, 2003, 03:12 PM	#19
jamesclarke555 Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: England Posts: 397	I've also got about 5 of my m8's to do this

Dec 23, 2003, 03:15 PM	#20
SH64 MAXIMUM TECH Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Planet TrES-4 Posts: 1,988	Done , 15?

Dec 23, 2003, 03:31 PM	#21
hodgeac Newbie Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 23	done...18.

Dec 23, 2003, 03:47 PM	#22
\|)irtyD!Ck Newbie Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 16	Done.... sorry lost count :P

Dec 23, 2003, 04:00 PM	#23
Vially Radeon R200 Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 87	\|)irtyD!Ck, Done, 19.

Dec 23, 2003, 04:44 PM	#24
spine Radeon R700 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 880	Thanks for all the replies. About 26 so far methinks, that's including jamesclarke555's 5 mates and himself. I've also made a post at overclockers.com forums: http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=255859 Should get a bunch more people to pester ATI about. Also edited the first post to include pics by exxtreme to illustrate the prob (hope you don't mind dude ) __________________ Opteron 146 @ 2920mhz, 1.60v 292 HTT, 194mhz memory Dangerden RBX Water Block, 22"x 17" Car Radiator with 7 80mm fans, Eheim 1250 pump DFI Lanparty nF3 Ultra-D Sapphire X800XL 466/567 (volt modded) with modified InnovaGraph-O-Matik Water Block 2xRAID-0 Array with Maxtor 160gb Disks Windows XP Professional SP2 Last edited by spine : Dec 23, 2003 at 04:47 PM.

Dec 23, 2003, 05:50 PM	#25
bakunin Radeon R520 Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: underneath all current Posts: 458	done. __________________ AthlonXP1500,384mbSDRam,ViaKT133a,Rad9700,WinXProSp1

Dec 23, 2003, 06:05 PM	#26
Rastusman Radeon R420 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fussa Posts: 231	Done. ( Insert number here)

Dec 23, 2003, 06:12 PM	#27
ozzfreak My Little Jerry! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 246	Done. ozz __________________ "I'd say I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not. I excel at not giving a crap." "You're a cute, furry little animal, aren't you? Unfortunately, you're made of meat."

ozzfreak's System Specs
Motherboard	EVGA X58 SLI3
CPU	Intel Core i7 920 @ 4.3GHz
Graphics	PNY GeForce GTX 560
Memory	6GB Triple Channel OCZ Platinum 1600
Cooling Solution	XSPC RASA RS360 Water Kit
Display	Panasonic 42" 1080p Plasma
Soundcard & Speakers	nVidia HDMI Audio
Hard-Drives	Western Digital 500GB Blue - Western Digital 2TB Green x 3 (Raid 5)
Optical Drives	Lite-ON iHES206-08 6x BDROM/DVD-RW
Power Supply	PC Power & Cooling PPCT860 860 Watt
Case	Cooler Master Centurion 590
Input Devices	HP Wireless Comfort Keyboard/Mouse
Operating System	Windows Vista Home Premium 64bit

Dec 23, 2003, 06:43 PM	#28
Star_Hunter Radeon R300 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 186	Done __________________ System specs: Athlon Xp 1800+ @ 1.84Ghz (11x167) ASUS A7v333 Windows XP Pro SP2 Mushkin Pc2100 1GB @ 2.5-3-3-6 Audigy 2 ZS Sapphire Radeon X800 Pro @ 531/560

Dec 23, 2003, 08:01 PM	#29
HENNESSY Radeon R420 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 202	done __________________ R300 \| A64 \| nForce3 \| PC3200

Dec 23, 2003, 08:02 PM	#30
bloodbob Radeon R520 Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 361	Done now can we get a thread like this for F-Buffer? http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...eadid=33732424 __________________ Hey sweety,sexy,honey cutie pie I didn't cheat on you with that girl I just optimised.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Anti-Aliasing problem for Direct3D application in "Window Mode"	Anti-Aliasing	AMD Radeon Software Discussion and Support	1	May 28, 2006 09:17 AM
"CATALYST maker"'s statement in the "We want Super-Sampling Anti-Aliasing" thread	jonib	AMD Radeon Software Discussion and Support	28	Sep 19, 2005 11:50 AM
Morrowind + Anti-Aliasing (AA) = "white" anomalies	Coyote	AMD Radeon Software Discussion and Support	5	Aug 16, 2004 12:07 PM
Hanners at EB: "Temporal anti-aliasing on R3x0 investigated"	digitalwanderer	AMD Radeon Discussion and Support	61	May 3, 2004 12:40 AM
"ATi & nVidia Anti-Aliasing Performance" analysis @ 3DCenter	Wunderchu	AMD Radeon Discussion and Support	3	Dec 13, 2003 09:23 PM