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Old Aug 8, 2022, 06:11 AM   #91
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the_sextein
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TSMC has been trying to keep America out of the chip war because they know what's going to happen. That plant in Arizona was TSMC doing it's best to calm the U.S fears that Taiwan will be taken over or eaten alive and controlled by China. It didn't work and the chip shortage was just a reminder that all of these mega corporations from America want more chips than TSMC can provide. American companies have the ability to make and supply their own chips and supply them to other chipmakers including their own competition which will eat TSMC's profits. Once that happens the price of manufacturing will drop and CPU/GPU prices will drop as well. No more playing games for the latest node. Once we hit 2nm you are not going to see much difference between manufacturers. Samsung will skyrocket and everyone invested in the industry will take home big gains just like in the past. Trust fund kids don't understand the importance of manufacturing or the realities of actually creating something. They are the first to ship overseas and throw American manufacturing to the wind. Those lazy people are the ones who gave rise to China as a super power in the first place. They are too dumb to be in control of business or government in my opinion and should keep their greedy little stock market paws off real world anything. If Nvidia using a 10nm process from Samsung could beat AMD using a 7nm process from TSMC imagine how little of a difference it's really going to make in the future when we hit 2nm or smaller. Nvidia did it to show TSMC that they are not in control and I bet you Nvidia will be the first to jump ship as soon as an alternative to TSMC becomes available.

American tech expanding it's own manufacturing ability will be much more stable economically and good thing for the entire industry. There is no reason why America's tech industry should be held hostage by a Chinese company that could fall under control of the Chinese government, not to mention that it's Americans that are buying this tech and paying through the nose for it. American tech companies will go with Chinese manufacturing if it saves them money but Chinese manufacturing in the high tech sector is a liability and it's no longer cheaper now that supply/demand has caused the cost of manufacturing to rise. Consumers like me and you are the ones who have been paying the price for that and I will be glad to see the problem delt with. I'm glad to see the U.S government step in because Intel should not have to compete against China's government and it's tech funding by itself.

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Old Aug 8, 2022, 09:59 AM   #92
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Do we have AIOs to handle 450 watts of CPU temps?
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Old Aug 8, 2022, 01:09 PM   #93
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I'm hearing 350watts without power limitations but I bet prime 95 really will break 400 on intel's latest. Nothing is going to cool that if you run something that intense without power limitations.
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Old Aug 8, 2022, 02:31 PM   #94
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Do we have AIOs to handle 450 watts of CPU temps?

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AIO will turn into a tea kettle at 450 watts
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Old Aug 8, 2022, 03:53 PM   #95
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Any AIO will cool. My guess is that most 2 fan AIO's will be able to work with the new chips. They'll just run hotter under those coolers and the fan noise will be more as they cool. It's not like the CPU won't just thermally throttle if it gets too hot.

Plus, most people don't run their CPU's at 100% all day, every day. So a 2 fan rad AIO should do the trick.

EDIT: A 9900k runs 200W stock and 250w OCed. I personally know a number of people that had a 120 AIO on theirs and were fine.

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Old Aug 8, 2022, 04:30 PM   #96
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Yeah I own one that I run at 5Ghz all core all the time. I use a 320mm cooler on mine and it runs nice and cool all the time unless you use an AVX512 enabled program that pushes the cores to 100%. When something like Prime 95 hits 250 watts nothing will help it. I used to have a $2000 EK custom water loop on the same chip and it didn't matter.

Intel will make these chips work on standard AIO's but they will have power limitations that keep them at 250 watts and even then it will be recommended that you go high end 320mm AIO for the high end 13900K. Pushing the chip beyond it's default values could be pretty insane as it seems that Intel is pushing it's silicon to the breaking point.
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Old Aug 9, 2022, 09:20 PM   #97
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I mean my AMD hits 85-90 C easy on a 360 mm AIO. This Intel gonna rape a 360 mm if specs are remotely true.
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Old Aug 10, 2022, 06:38 AM   #98
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I've noticed that there is a point where the heat is so concentrated that it doesn't matter what cooler you have. I had dual D5 pumps with a 460mm and a 320mm radiator and it simply didn't matter after a point. The design of the chip will have to alleviate it. AMD is pushing the frequency up to match Intel this time so they are going to have more power and heat as well. Intel's 8 large P cores have been insane ever since they broke 5Ghz with the 10900k but both Intel and AMD have to do something about it. AMD has a completely new design and dropped down to 5nm. Intel....they are still using the same 8 large core design from the 9900K days and they are still on 10nm like last time. Intel has improved 10nm results from TSMC but it doesn't look like it will be enough to keep it in check. 350 watts in PC mark is crazy. They could have reduced it nearly 100 watts but they had to push it up to 5.5Ghz all core to stay up with AMD so now they are pushing 12900K levels of crazy from the leaks that have been posted and it will be worse with the power restrictions lifted.

Intel has done a wonderful job with the E cores and they may end up taking the multithread crown this time but the 8 performance cores need to be redesigned for better power efficiency and Intel needs to drop down to 7nm or lower.

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Old Aug 10, 2022, 07:23 AM   #99
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Intel "10nm" is not an apples:apples comparison with TSMC "7nm". There is no standard to gauge the node sizes, so you have companies marketing things to look better than they are. There's a reason Intel has renamed their enhanced "10nm" node to *Intel 7*. Their current node is very close to TSMC 7nm in terms of density and size.

But yeah, temperatures are high on these new chips not so much due to the power/heat being generated, but because of the lack of surface area to dissipate and transfer the heat. This is why GPUs can consume 500watts and be cooled effectively, but a 5950X pushing 250watts is an absolute nightmare. Intel has been doing research apparently on a new IHS design from what I've heard that is trying to alleviate this issue.

AMDs design for AM4.. I have no idea. They sacrificed a lot of surface area with the *notches* on the IHS. I understand that's because they went LGA this round and needed to have capacitors on the front of the PCB, but it's still surface area lost.

The thicker the IHS and/or die, the worse it'll transfer heat. That's why Intel made so many adjustments to the IHS, and also thinning the substrates down on the die. We want to be as close as possible to the heat source as we can in order to transfer heat as efficiently as possible. I wish we could just go back to the days of chips coming with no lids, and we direct-to-die cooled as a standard. Unfortunately with the lack of braincells the average user has.. it'll never happen.
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Old Aug 10, 2022, 07:59 AM   #100
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Intel's 10nm may be close to TSMC 7nm but it's still not the same density and AMD has dropped down to 5nm. They are both dealing with 8 large cores engaged at the same frequencies and similar IPC and cache holes seem to be filled on both sides. It seems to me that Intel needs to realize they aren't the ones manufacturing these things and they don't have an advantage in that area anymore. If they want to keep up then they need to actually keep up in this area.

I agree about AMD, it will be interesting to see how the new design handles the heat. It has been one of the largest limiting factors of AMD's design in the past. It would be nice if they came up with a solution but I'm not going to count on it. That's why I won't impulse buy anything from either one of them. I'll be waiting on reviews that cover temps properly before considering either one of them.

My GPU sucks 400 watts and never breaks 65C. I really don't care about the power but if Intel is going to suck down an extra 100 watts then they better cool it properly. I'm tired of 90-100C temps. I have to let my PC run all day sometimes under full load while it renders and if the GPU kicks out it would fry a chip that runs that hot. I'm sure the CPU would back off to avoid burning up but it would be stuck like that all day and severely reduce the life of the chip. It doesn't look like Intel has done anything to fix the problem yet and I have not heard anything to curb my fears that this is going to be just as bad, if not worse than the last chip. That's why I have been more optimistic with AMD this time. They at least have a new design and improved silicon since the last chip series and the more modern core design has been much more power efficient the last few releases vs intels P cores.

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Old Aug 10, 2022, 08:30 AM   #101
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Well that's simply it.. there's no way to cool it properly. The limitations of thermal transfer is the main issue with these reduced die sizes, and until there's a new method of transfer, or a new die design that includes the cooler with liquid flowing through the substrates.. there's not much they can do. If you don't want the chip to burn up in the case of GPU failure, then you can easily set the throttle temperature to 70, 80, or whatever you'd like so that it will downvolt/downclock to avoid exceeding your set TJMAX.
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Old Aug 10, 2022, 08:42 AM   #102
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Yeah I get you.

It's not really a GPU failure I'm worried about. The software will sometimes kick the GPU out if you are rendering an image series. If it doesn't properly clear the VRAM then when the scene updates to the next frame it can overflow the VRAM and kick the GPU from the program. Then it will switch to the CPU and run all cores at max load for hours until I can get to it. The CPU will throttle all day and it will damage it's lifespan.

I could lower the throttle temp but then I'm paying for performance that I can't actually get so it seems like a waste of cash at the high end.

I think AMD has been doing better with each new release in this regard as well as having less power draw in general. I think they can both do better and have been too focused on pushing an extra 100Mhz on a design that is pushed way past it's power efficiency sweet spot. Faster designs that don't need to be overclocked beyond the intended power level to compete would be nice for a change. Maybe the cost of modern chips is just getting too out of control?

I feel like AMD has been more professional in this regard. They are more likely to make a new design and stick to it. Intel has been very reluctant to let go of it's P cores or it's manufacturing and they have consistently overclocked their chips beyond the point of no return for the last 3 years.

I like Intel but I want them to do better and hope that they improve their product lines in the near future.

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Old Aug 10, 2022, 09:04 AM   #103
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I don't know what you mean by "letting go of it's P cores". They're the ones ahead of the curve with the Big-Little design that is the way of the future. If anything, AMD hasn't let go of the "P core" old way of doing things.

Why would Intel let go of it's manufacturing? Makes no sense.. they may have fallen behind over the years but with the new factories and government incentives, every single American should be rooting for Intel to succeed in this aspect. I don't know about you, but we have seen the issues that come with TSMC having sole capability of manufacturing high-end nodes..

Things take time to correct the errors of past ownership. Rome wasn't built in a day. They're on the right track.
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Old Aug 10, 2022, 09:15 AM   #104
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I think you misunderstood me. I'm just hoping Intel improves it's current problematic situation as soon as possible. I understand it takes time and I'm certainly rooting for them to return to the top when it comes to manufacturing.

I'm just saying that right now they are relying on TSMC and don't have that advantage, in fact AMD is spending the money for a smaller, more advanced 5nm node and are less reluctant to make a new design which has swayed things in their favor.

Intel's E cores were a good idea and I think it's a winning design but Intel's larger P cores at the same frequency as AMD's large cores will consume more power and produce more heat because they are inefficient and need to be modernized. They need to do more to keep them out of the red so to speak.

I do agree they are on the correct path but I'm not confident in the 13900K like I was the 9900K. I'm not counting them out but I have severe doubts that the 13900K is going to be a chip that I want to own. It just doesn't look like it will be as efficient and it's performance looks to be similar to AMD. If AMD had a large performance disadvantage then the extra power and heat from Intel may be a consideration but if AMD can offer similar performance at better temps then I'm jumping ship until Intel either jumps down to the same silicon that AMD is on or they get their own manufacturing in top form again which will be a few years yet.
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Old Aug 10, 2022, 09:29 AM   #105
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Intel has made chips that, despite being on worse/larger nodes, have performed equally or better.

Just like NV, Intel hasn't had to rely on a node advantage to perform up to par. If AMD didn't pay TSMC for the node advantage, I'd imagine they would be behind. Regardless.. the larger node helps Intel with thermal dissipation. I'm super curious how this 5nm node is going to work. AMD already struggled with 7nm.

Heat being produced isn't really the issue anymore at these node sizes, if you ask me. It's being able to dissipate it, and the smaller we go, the harder that is.

Alder Lake cores are "modernized". Raptor Lake should be a stepping stone, but the bigger leap will be Meteor Lake.
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Old Aug 10, 2022, 09:48 AM   #106
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I agree with that as well. Better designs always pay off regardless of what node they are on but Intel's IPC, cache, frequency are all being matched and the power and heat has been worse for these last few CPU series. The E cores could give Intel a multithread advantage but based on the 12900K I would say that advantage will not be a large one.

In terms of heat vs silicon size. It depends, sometimes it can be beneficial because you can power more transistors for less energy when they are packed closer together. On the other hand, you can get crosstalk or energy bleed and the heat that is produced is compact on a smaller surface and harder to dissipate. Still, as you will see with Nvidia's new 5nm node, they are going to make large gains without the temps changing much. More power comes from more cuda cores, higher frequencies but the node drop to 5nm is actually saving them power and heat and they are still capable of cooling it properly. People complain about power rise but it's still a very efficient design if you have doubled the throughput with a 50 watt increase in the power. If they improve the cooling design to keep the temps stable or even lower them like Nvidia did last time, then everything is good to go. I have seen a slick E core intro that has allowed Intel to keep pace or even surpass AMD in multicore workloads but frequency and IPC have not gone very far and considering the power and temps are already worse... They just seem locked up right now.
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Old Aug 10, 2022, 12:09 PM   #107
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AMD's Ryzen 5xxx series are significantly more power efficient than either the 11th, 12th or 13th gen parts. Intel simply had poor processor design. Just like AMD did pre-Ryzen. (See below for example.)



Processors are also basically designed to take up as much cooling as you can throw at them. The 12th gen parts in particular scale all the way to 360mm water cooling solutions.


This isn't the mid-2000s any more. These parts are designed to stay at 90C.


The alternative is to do what Apple does with the M1 and M2, and throw a lot of processor area at the problem instead of scaling clock speeds. Personally I prefer this solution, but Intel and AMD clearly do not.


Hopefully competition changes things.



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Old Aug 10, 2022, 12:43 PM   #108
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AMD's core design is more modern in that is can do more with less frequency(IPC) for a variety of reasons. The more complex the core, the more you reap from node drops. Intel probably knows that improvements from the silicon are about to hit a brick wall so they didn't bother to update it. They have always had the headroom to push more frequency but that has clearly hit a wall now that cores have passed beyond 8 which forced them to make E cores but the big cores remain behind AMD. It will be interesting to see how AMD's new cores will perform vs intel now that they have reached parity with Intel in frequency.

Regardless of performance I think Intel needs to do something about it's power problems. AMD isn't out of the forest yet either, we have yet to see how the 7000 series will fare when it comes to heat now that they are pushing 5.5Ghz+. It looks to me that the socket max is lower than Intel's power restrictions which tell me that AMD still has a power advantage and probably a decent size one.

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Old Aug 10, 2022, 12:44 PM   #109
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This isn't the mid-2000s any more. These parts are designed to stay at 90C.
Is that really the case? I see throttling on a laptop AMD 5800 CPU at 75C.
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Old Aug 10, 2022, 01:00 PM   #110
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Modern electronics are designed and capable of running at higher temps then they were in the 1990's. 90C should NOT be ok with anyone for extended periods of time. I don't care what they say it is not sustainable.

I remember when it was ok if the CPU went into the upper 60's under full load. Then it was ok if it hit upper 70's as long as it was not sustained. Then it hit 80's and people just started b!tching and then it hit 90's and it would seam that the industry has gone off the rails. Intel hit 100C on the last one and since I use my CPU for more than just gaming or running a benchmark a couple of times when I build the system, I've drawn a line that I won't cross and that is 90C. If these chips peak into the 90's then I'm not buying them. They run all day long and that is a fire hazard.

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Old Aug 10, 2022, 02:51 PM   #111
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https://wccftech.com/intel-core-i9-1...ots-benchmark/
Can't complain about those gains. Intel is pushing forward hard and giving much more than they have in a long time.
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Old Aug 10, 2022, 05:49 PM   #112
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This is why competition is important. The only time us consumers can benefit, instead of shareholders getting all the love.
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Old Aug 20, 2022, 02:11 PM   #113
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Old Aug 25, 2022, 04:20 PM   #114
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Intel Core i7-13700K 16 Core Raptor Lake CPU Specs

The Intel Core i7-13700K CPU will be the fastest 13th Gen Core i7 chip on offer within the Raptor Lake CPU lineup. The chip features a total of 16 cores and 24 threads. This configuration is made possible with 8 P-Cores based on the Raptor Cove architecture and 8 E-Cores based on the Grace Mont core architecture. The CPU comes with 30 MB of L3 cache and 24 MB of L2 cache for a total combined 54 MB cache. The chip was running at a base clock of 3.4 GHz and a boost clock of 5.40 GHz. The all-core boost is rated at 5.3 GHz for the P-Cores while the E-Cores feature a base clock of 3.4 GHz and a boost clock of 4.3 GHz.

This is the chip that AMD has to best for me.
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Old Aug 25, 2022, 09:11 PM   #115
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8 P cores. Intel should stay in 2012…
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Old Aug 26, 2022, 09:55 AM   #116
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Intel Boost Frequencies of the All-important Core i5-13400 and i5-13500 Revealed

The new Intel processors have maximum turbo frequencies of 4.10 GHz and 4.5 GHz, respectively.

Maximum boost frequencies of the Core i5-13400 and i5-13500 surfaced on the web thanks to Passmark screenshots scored by TUM_APISAK. Boost frequencies of 13th Gen Core processors weren't part of the recent lineup leak. The i5-13400 has a maximum boost frequency of 4.10 GHz, while the i5-13500 comes with 4.50 GHz. Both SKUs have an identical base frequency of 2.50 GHz. The maximum turbo frequency of 4.10 GHz for the i5-13400 is significantly lower than the 5.80 GHz of the flagship i9-13900K, and the 5.10 GHz of the i5-13600K. It's also quite spaced apart from the i5-13500, with its 4.50 GHz. Perhaps Intel really wants some consumer interest in the Core i5 SKUs positioned between the i5-13400 and the i5-13600K.


Source: techPowerUp!
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Old Aug 26, 2022, 10:09 AM   #117
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Intel Intel Core i9-13900 (non-K) Spotted with 5.60 GHz Max Boost, Benchmarked

In contrast to the Core i9-13900K, the non-K version has a locked multiplier and a lower maximum turbo frequency.

Tested in Geekbench 5.4.5, the i9-13900 scores 2130 points in the single-threaded test, and 20131 points in the multi-threaded one. Wccftech tabulated these scores in comparison to the current-gen flagship i9-12900K. The i9-13900 ends up 10 percent faster than the i9-12900K in the single-threaded test, and 17 percent faster in the multi-threaded. The single-threaded uplift is thanks to the higher IPC of the "Raptor Cove" P-core, and slightly higher boost clock; while the multi-threaded score is helped not just by the higher IPC, but also the addition of 8 more E-cores.


Source: techPowerUp!
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Old Aug 26, 2022, 11:30 AM   #118
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Wow!
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Old Aug 28, 2022, 01:03 PM   #119
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Old Aug 29, 2022, 11:23 PM   #120
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They'll sell like crazy for a month and then sales will drop like a rock. Prices will follow.
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