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Old May 23, 2010, 09:19 PM   #1
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Default Why do you still buy ATi?

I am genuinely intrigued why do people still buy ATi? I know two friends of mine (college students) who are beating their heads because they bought ATi cards. They could make good use out of CUDA and are intrigued about stereo 3D after I showed it to them.

This made me question why do people still buy ATi? Is it only the raw performance coupled with a good price point?

For me, ATi seems outdated by today's standards, but there are obviously people out there who don't feel the same way and keep buying ATi products.
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Old May 23, 2010, 10:07 PM   #2
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If you're poor, ATI products are cheaper than Nvidia products and generally offer at least equivalent performance. It's the equivalent of buying an original Dodge Viper (the one which didn't have doors), you get a lot of horsepower for your money and absolutely nothing else.
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Old May 23, 2010, 10:40 PM   #3
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Wow...The two most asinine posts today, in the same thread, one right after the other.

Could maybe be some prefer to get better value for their money. Could be that AMD/ATI got their DX11 part out the door 6 months before Nvidia, and that fermi is too expensive, too hot, and way too late, to warrant an upgrade.
Because Cuda and Physx are proprietary and should never have existed in the first place. As to 3D, it is a niche and will remain that way for some time.
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Old May 23, 2010, 10:51 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Faceless Rebel View Post
If you're poor, ATI products are cheaper than Nvidia products and generally offer at least equivalent performance. It's the equivalent of buying an original Dodge Viper (the one which didn't have doors), you get a lot of horsepower for your money and absolutely nothing else.
Please try not to make this thread in bad taste. I don't think buying a 5870 makes you a poor person.
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Old May 23, 2010, 10:54 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by spike700 View Post
Because Cuda and Physx are proprietary and should never have existed in the first place. As to 3D, it is a niche and will remain that way for some time.
Bullocks, the use of CUDA, PhysX and 3D vision is highly welcomed by those who use it.

I guess the point you are trying to make is that you don't care for CUDA, physics and 3D vision, which is fair I guess. Confirming that what some people look for in ATi is great raw performance with a competitive price point.
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Old May 23, 2010, 11:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrygian View Post
Bullocks, the use of CUDA, PhysX and 3D vision is highly welcomed by those who use it.

I guess the point you are trying to make is that you don't care for CUDA, physics and 3D vision, which is fair I guess. Confirming that what some people look for in ATi is great raw performance with a competitive price point.
There in lies the problem, only one side can use it.
Quite frankly I do not care about 3D at all.
Gpu accelerated physics, on the other hand, could be used to great effect in the future when it matures a bit more. To be completely honest, I sincerely hope that Cuda and Physx are completely displaced by OpenCL and Direct Compute. Closed standards were, and still are, a bad idea.
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Old May 23, 2010, 11:09 PM   #7
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My 5970 was 700 dollars and I got a 5870 coming in the mail this week which was another 400. Making it more then the cost of 2 gtx480s. Please explain the price point of ati in that for me thanks. Since the x1900 series I have owned a 2 7900gtxs, 2 8800gtx, 2 9800gx2, 1 gtx 260 and 1 gtx 285. Personally 3d vision is garbage to me tried it and couldn't care less. Running max settings with jacked IQ at 2560x1600 takes alot of horsepower so I buy whatever company will produce that for me.
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Old May 23, 2010, 11:26 PM   #8
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Because I just feel I can 'trust' ATi more than I can 'trust' Nvidia. Can't explain it, but I just feel dirty buying Nvidia cards (and I'm not biased or anything, I've owned more Nvidia cards than I have ATi - I just prefer the latter now).

My only gripe is the lack of 'cutting edge' features from ATi. Nvidia seems to enjoy experimenting with new things much more than ATi these days, though a long time back I can remember when almost every driver release from the Big Red had some amazing new feature or trick to try out... I miss those days
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Old May 23, 2010, 11:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Sobek View Post
Because I just feel I can 'trust' ATi more than I can 'trust' Nvidia. Can't explain it, but I just feel dirty buying Nvidia cards (and I'mnot biased or anything, I've owned more Nvidia cards than I have ATi - I just prefer the latter now).
So you are buying your video card in a basis of trust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spike700 View Post
There in lies the problem, only one side can use it.
Quite frankly I do not care about 3D at all.
Gpu accelerated physics, on the other hand, could be used to great effect in the future when it matures a bit more. To be completely honest, I sincerely hope that Cuda and Physx are completely displaced by OpenCL and Direct Compute. Closed standards were, and still are, a bad idea.
I agree that CUDA, and physics should be open standards. However, lets just assume that everyone is selfish (which we are by nature). Do you really decide on which product you buy basing your choice on a moral high ground regarding video cards?

I understand the desire to have open standards but not taking advantage of the opportunity offered by the competition's products is what I do not understand.

Do you believe an open standard would have been pushed onto games like nVidia did with their own money on titles like Batman:AA, MafiaII? I would find it hard to imagine, due to the overwhelming amount of ports from consoles to pc. Seeing as some Pc ports have issues with correct FOV, widescreen support, AA and other things we've come to expect on the pc platform I find it hard to believe they would offer physics through an open standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycdarkness View Post
My 5970 was 700 dollars and I got a 5870 coming in the mail this week which was another 400. Making it more then the cost of 2 gtx480s. Please explain the price point of ati in that for me thanks. Since the x1900 series I have owned a 2 7900gtxs, 2 8800gtx, 2 9800gx2, 1 gtx 260 and 1 gtx 285. Personally 3d vision is garbage to me tried it and couldn't care less. Running max settings with jacked IQ at 2560x1600 takes alot of horsepower so I buy whatever company will produce that for me.
I never said ATi users were poor, that was the other poster.
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Old May 23, 2010, 11:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrygian View Post
So you are buying your video card in a basis of trust?
Mmm, not entirely, no. Obviously if there are major negatives with a new card (like Nvidia's GTX480) I'd be more inclined to change over to the competition for a time... But so far that hasn't really happened with ATi. There was the 2900xt I suppose, but they really worked hard post-release to make the card work right, and I ended up happy with that.

I still watch closely for new features or improvements in new release cards that make one more worthwhile over another, but so far, ATi's done a pretty bang-up job so I've been quite content to stay with them for some time now. I suppose it's 50/50. Half of my decision is based on a loyalty or appreciation of ATi's efforts and improvements, the other half is for their dedication to the betterment of the hardware they produce.

Nvidia seem to really love trying out fancy new things that may or may not work as intended, and I love that, but ATi seem more focused on taking what they have and improving it as best they can. The evolution from the 2xxx through to the 4xxx and now the 5xxx is indicative of this - it's an amazing series of improvements that I'm actually proud to see them accomplish. It started out rough but they refined and improved what they had to an absolute point, and it's turned out great...

I feel like I'm not really getting my point across. I don't think I know how to explain my reasoning
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Old May 24, 2010, 01:29 AM   #11
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What is wrong with raw performance and a good price point coupled with excellent Image Quality?

I've never once 'beat my head' because I bought ATI cards.

AND, I've owned a HOST of them beginning with the All-in-Wonder 8 MB PCI card from the early-mid 1990's. I've owned several RAGE cards and bought one of the very first RADEON cards. I've never, EVER felt cheated by buying ATI graphics cards.

Now my turn for a question: Is Phrygian an nV plant? j/k
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Old May 24, 2010, 01:36 AM   #12
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Many people bought HD 5850s and OCed them with MSI's Afterburner to stock 5870 performance levels or greater.

Knowing what I know now, I wish I had taken that approach.

It's also worth noting an OCed 5850 will often load 18C cooler than a GTX 470. Lord knows what the difference is between one and a GTX 480.

I could see a person buying a HD 5850 for 300usd for 1920x gaming after they look at many benches and see the card is perfectly playable in the overwhelming majority of them. Again, easy overclocking seems to be attractive to many too. Most overclockers basically end up with 300usd 5870 performance or better.

If one card has a 35 FPS min and a 60 FPS average and another has a 40 FPS min and a 70 FPS average, why not buy the 50usd cheaper cooler card? They're both playable and you'll never feel a difference between them.

Now if you want PhysX without hacked drivers or 3d vision, then nVidia is clearly the only choice.

I'd say for many people, it is indeed likely price point and performance. The lower power consumption and cooler loading temps probably don't hurt either. It is possible some enthusiasts were more interested in Eyefinity than 3d vision.

3d vision is great and it's possible a person buying a single 5850 may not want to spend money on the kit/glasses, the extra cash for a 470, or the extra cash for a 120Hz LCD. The kit is 200usd and something like an Acer 120Hz LCD is around an additional 400usd. Some titles are very demanding with 3d vision and some may consider 470 SLi desirable for it. That adds the cost of an additional 470.

For people who want a quick solid simple upgrade to an older graphics card the HD 5850 really is an outstanding choice. They're cool quiet and powerful. It's also less likely they would need to upgrade their PSU vs buying a current mid to high end nVidia product.

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Old May 24, 2010, 02:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyre Straits View Post
Now my turn for a question: Is Phrygian an nV plant? j/k
Damn I have been discovered! *Jedi mind trick*

But really I don't get why people buy ATi. Unless you are running dual 5970s like nycdarkness I don't really see the point.


Edit: I just read Backlash' post. Alright, that seems reasonable enough.

Quote:
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For people who want a quick solid simple upgrade to an older graphics card the HD 5850 really is an outstanding choice. They're cool quiet and powerful. It's also less likely they would need to upgrade their PSU vs buying a current mid to high end nVidia product.

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Old May 24, 2010, 02:13 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Phrygian View Post
I am genuinely intrigued why do people still buy ATi? I know two friends of mine (college students) who are beating their heads because they bought ATi cards. They could make good use out of CUDA and are intrigued about stereo 3D after I showed it to them.

This made me question why do people still buy ATi? Is it only the raw performance coupled with a good price point?

For me, ATi seems outdated by today's standards, but there are obviously people out there who don't feel the same way and keep buying ATi products.
Why buy ATi, well for alot of folks it is the better deal. Can you buy a sub $200 or $100 with DX11 yet from Nvidia? Some college folks learning game programing would or could apprciate that. Plus OpenCL is probably the right path to take for GPU computing now and to learn. As for physics bullet has that covered for everyone, Nvidia or ATi. If you want a multimedia computer, ATi is probably a much better way to go with their better support and hardware. Multi monitor, once again ATi is the better tech. 3d will come of age eventually, 3dVision is only a stepping stone more of a toy as well. My two cents and viewpoint.
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Old May 24, 2010, 04:27 AM   #15
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Gee Phrygian,

For some one coming onto an ATI/AMD forum and "proporting" to genueinly equire why anyone would buy ATI over Nvidia, your continued posts seem to want to provoke a flame war!!

You asked once, and were given reasonable answers, you then asked the same thing twice and got more and better reasons why, then you come out again with a third try (But really I don't get why people buy ATi. Unless you are running dual 5970s like nycdarkness I don't really see the point.)

For many of us it's people like "YOU" that push us further toward ATI, so theres your fourth reason , now cut it out and move on!!!!
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Old May 24, 2010, 05:41 AM   #16
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everybody is talking open cl, but where is it now? physx already there in some games!

if only fermi could be like '75' lower both in wattage and price, I think things wouldn't look that bad for nv

nevertheless I've just switched to nv after 7 years and not regretting anything
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Old May 24, 2010, 06:49 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Phrygian View Post
Damn I have been discovered! *Jedi mind trick*

But really I don't get why people buy ATi. Unless you are running dual 5970s like nycdarkness I don't really see the point.


Edit: I just read Backlash' post. Alright, that seems reasonable enough.
I buy ATi because their cards have worked well for me.I have purchased Nvidia cards too.I just can't stand Nvidia's business tactics,their philosophy sucks,their propriety features are a turn off and their shills and fanboys are annoying and do more than turning off potential customers more than Nvidia themselves.There is a particularly annoying one in this thread as an example.
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Old May 24, 2010, 06:55 AM   #18
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Well, in my case, my 8800GTS died two weeks ago, and I need a replacement. I was looking for a sub $200 card, and the 5770 was the best I could find. Didn't want a 4890 because it is not DX11. The GTX260 has physics, but is also not DX11 and the 5770 is faster than it. So, in my view, nVidia simply has no product if you want a midrange card.
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Old May 24, 2010, 07:13 AM   #19
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But really I don't get why people buy ATi. Unless you are running dual 5970s like nycdarkness I don't really see the point.


Edit: I just read Backlash' post. Alright, that seems reasonable enough.
Most people buy at a price point, not a performance level. However those people don't tend to frequent forums as much. Most people also consider power consumption, and heat. A lot of people also consider noise. Many consider driver stability, and I know it's not 'cool' but right now ATI Catalyst drivers are more mature and stable than nVidia. nVidia have two consumer products right now, and those don't directly compete on price with ATI's complete desktop line up of products. When you don't have a choice, it's easier to make a decision. Fortunately ATI delivered not only a good high end, but good mid range and low end as well.

As for Stereo 3D, it's not an nVidia exclusive but it is the only solution you can buy today (but not on Fermi, still only uses last generation cards until nVidia get their drivers sorted).

As far as your friends being able to make good use of CUDA, I doubt that. 99% of people don't know what CUDA is, nor how to leverage it.

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Old May 24, 2010, 07:24 AM   #20
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Well, in my case, my 8800GTS died two weeks ago, and I need a replacement. I was looking for a sub $200 card, and the 5770 was the best I could find. Didn't want a 4890 because it is not DX11. The GTX260 has physics, but is also not DX11 and the 5770 is faster than it. So, in my view, nVidia simply has no product if you want a midrange card.

Well there you have it!! You answered your own argumentative thread!!!

I also picked up the 5770 as it is pure and simple brilliant at it's price/performance range and Nvidia has nothing to compete with it.

ATI/AMD now hold the entire product range from LOW to MID to HIGH END all at great price,power,performance and temperature range and Nvidia really need to kick back strongly to keep the competition going!!!
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Old May 24, 2010, 07:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oozz77 View Post
Well, in my case, my 8800GTS died two weeks ago, and I need a replacement. I was looking for a sub $200 card, and the 5770 was the best I could find. Didn't want a 4890 because it is not DX11. The GTX260 has physics, but is also not DX11 and the 5770 is faster than it. So, in my view, nVidia simply has no product if you want a midrange card.

Well there you have it!! You answered your own argumentative thread!!!

I also picked up the 5770 as it is pure and simple brilliant at it's price/performance range and Nvidia has nothing to compete with it.

ATI/AMD now hold the entire product range from LOW to MID to HIGH END all at great price,power,performance and temperature range and Nvidia really need to kick back strongly to keep the competition going!!!
That wasn't Phrygian who said that.
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Old May 24, 2010, 07:53 AM   #22
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OH not .... againnnnnnnnn ... another crappy thread with ATI vs Nvidia and bashing...
Someone should close this
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Old May 24, 2010, 08:22 AM   #23
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That wasn't Phrygian who said that

Yeh, when you start missreading names at this time of night, and the the tone of the thread, I agree, time to close thread!
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Old May 24, 2010, 08:36 AM   #24
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OH not .... againnnnnnnnn ... another crappy thread with ATI vs Nvidia and bashing...
Someone should close this
Exactly !!!

Personally im not biased to either side.

ATi makes great cards as my 5970 is one of them.

I do regret some problems in games and the slew of fixes the driver team is coming up with every month. And there is the gray stripes issue still being out there after so many months...

Not to mention ATi cards are way toooo long.lol.

Nvidia has hardware support for the newest programs ATi is still lacking but performance wise there isn't this much a difference, surely when considering the monthly electricity bill, noise and heat me would tend to give ATi the edge at the moment.

Nevertheless nvidia's driver team is top notch so we might see big ameliorations in the next few months.
Have both brands: a Gigabyte 5970 and a PoV + Gigabyte 480 gtx in sli.
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Old May 24, 2010, 09:33 AM   #25
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I buy both ATI and NVidia cards, but my most significant purchases have leaned toward ATI for this reason alone: Performance at the price point.

For example, I was able to get two Radeon 4850s shortly after launch for $160 each. I could not think of anything that would have been a better deal. In addition, I've been satisfied with Catalyst's stability on all my systems, ranging from my old Athlon XP with its 9700 Pro through my current system.

I do have NVidia cards in my [email protected] system though.
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Old May 24, 2010, 10:38 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caveman-jim View Post
Most people buy at a price point, not a performance level. However those people don't tend to frequent forums as much. Most people also consider power consumption, and heat. A lot of people also consider noise. Many consider driver stability, and I know it's not 'cool' but right now ATI Catalyst drivers are more mature and stable than nVidia. nVidia have two consumer products right now, and those don't directly compete on price with ATI's complete desktop line up of products. When you don't have a choice, it's easier to make a decision. Fortunately ATI delivered not only a good high end, but good mid range and low end as well.

As for Stereo 3D, it's not an nVidia exclusive but it is the only solution you can buy today (but not on Fermi, still only uses last generation cards until nVidia get their drivers sorted).

As far as your friends being able to make good use of CUDA, I doubt that. 99% of people don't know what CUDA is, nor how to leverage it.
I didn't consider this in my questions, which was stupid.

For one I didn't consider that the 5000 series released more than 6 months ago, beating nVidia to DX11 by a long time. I didn't consider the mid-range/low-range either, something that nVidia doesn't offer at all right now as you mentioned.

As to CUDA, the only benefit they would get out of it is from applications that already have CUDA enabled features such as Photoshop, especially CS5, and encoding software.
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Old May 24, 2010, 11:14 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuter View Post
Nvidia has hardware support for the newest programs ATi is still lacking
For example?
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Old May 24, 2010, 11:14 AM   #28
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Because I asked my self "How many times have I ever used CUDA or PhysX" when I had my 8800GT. The answer was not enough to spend extra money to keep the features.

Although I do admit, I like messing around with PhysX.
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Old May 24, 2010, 11:28 AM   #29
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The only feature from nVidia which I wish ATi users could utilise is that of PhysX. Having said that, PhysX itself is not something that should be in existance as it should be an open standard. So perhaps I should re-phrase that to "physics on GPU is something that I would like to see happen for ATi users".
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Old May 24, 2010, 12:02 PM   #30
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Same here, all this processing power being stacked in your closet or my closet of old cards going to waste, would be nice to recycle. The problem I had with PhysX is that it's performance really sucks if being done on a single card with the graphic routines. Even Fermi takes a noise drive if PhysX is turned up on a single card. At TweakTown with Batman AA, a GTX 480 at 1920x1200 without PhysX did 180fps, with PhysX turned on, 77fps. A 67% loss of performance. Put on some 3d glasses with PhysX, a slide show may ensue. While in this case not to bad since playable game play is still achieved but add PhysX to Crysis level of detail and a single card would probably have some problems. PhysX should use all the cores of the cpu as well so folks with lesser then a 480 card can actually use it without having to have dual cards in their machine.

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/329...d/index12.html
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