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Old May 28, 2005, 08:53 AM   #1
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1stFlight
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Default Intel's Dual Core to be Cheaper than AMD's?

Talk about you role reversal! I recall the old days od computing when Intel released a chip, you could either A) Buy one processor B) Buy a new washer and dryer C) Use the money for a good down payment on a car.
Compared to the AMD Athlon X2, however, Intel's new Pentium D offers a dramatic discount. AMD's slowest 2.2-GHz 4200+ Athlon X2 is priced at $537, while the slowest Intel Pentium D, the 2.8-GHz 820, is priced at $241. Intel also offers a premium dual-core part, the Pentium 4 Extreme Edition, priced at $999. AMD has yet to update its microprocessor pricing page with the price of the X2, although executives have quoted those prices in briefings.


Source:Extremetech
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Old May 28, 2005, 09:54 AM   #2
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Hmmm, talk about a turn of events eh?
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Old May 28, 2005, 12:12 PM   #3
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"AMD's slowest 2.2-GHz 4200+ Athlon X2 is priced at $537"
Notice the 4200+ rating?

"...Intel Pentium D, the 2.8-GHz 820, is priced at $241"

The amd will smoke the pants off the Intel... so no wonder it costs more...
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Old May 28, 2005, 12:14 PM   #4
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0ptimus
"AMD's slowest 2.2-GHz 4200+ Athlon X2 is priced at $537"
Notice the 4200+ rating?

"...Intel Pentium D, the 2.8-GHz 820, is priced at $241"

The amd will smoke the pants off the Intel... so no wonder it costs more...
Very true, however.. If these perform better than their single core cousins, I would for sure step into an Intel platform in the future. We just happen to have a dual core ready SLI nForce4 chipset board ready for these CPUs. Going to test it out, as soon as we can get our hands on a CPU.
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Old May 28, 2005, 01:05 PM   #5
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Hello, and welcome to last month
psssst, this is OFN
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Old May 28, 2005, 01:12 PM   #6
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still going AMD dual-core, cuz of their [email protected]$$ memory controller performance and 'bios-upgrade' compatibility option... don't want to spend money on a new chipset just to use dual-core like the Intel platform...
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Old May 28, 2005, 01:19 PM   #7
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaidarHaran
Hello, and welcome to last month
psssst, this is OFN
sshhhhhh...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed
Granted, this is coming from the fella' who's had over 1,000lbs of bucking muscle under neath him.
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Old May 28, 2005, 01:41 PM   #8
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vfxraven19
still going AMD dual-core, cuz of their [email protected]$$ memory controller performance and 'bios-upgrade' compatibility option... don't want to spend money on a new chipset just to use dual-core like the Intel platform...
Tell me about it... I was looking forward to Smithfield leading up to the initial previews a couple months ago and then came the wonderful news that despite socket-compatibility with existing 915/925 mobos DC P4 only works with 945/955 and newer chipsets
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Old May 28, 2005, 01:51 PM   #9
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Even if it is more expensive, the fact that AMD doesn't include DRM means that I'll still be firmly putting my money on their side. I'd rather have equipment that works for me, rather than works against me.
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Old May 28, 2005, 02:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stFlight
Even if it is more expensive, the fact that AMD doesn't include DRM means that I'll still be firmly putting my money on their side. I'd rather have equipment that works for me, rather than works against me.
This is quite true. I don't want DRM anywhere near the processor I pay good money for.
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Old May 28, 2005, 03:07 PM   #11
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4200+ vs. 2.8ghz, that's why the price difference is there...... I wonder how much a 4.2ghz intel dual core will cost......
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Old May 28, 2005, 05:13 PM   #12
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Lightbulb

yeah there is no match between X2 4200+ and 820 D....

interesting will be amd to release a cheap X2 3800 or so in the $399 range to counter the "cheap" 820 D lol
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Old May 28, 2005, 10:54 PM   #13
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DnL
yeah there is no match between X2 4200+ and 820 D....

interesting will be amd to release a cheap X2 3800 or so in the $399 range to counter the "cheap" 820 D lol
I don't see why they couldn't, I'm sure there'd be a market for 1.8 or 2.0GHz x2's.
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Old May 28, 2005, 11:03 PM   #14
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i would absolutely love for amd to release dual chips with lower models. that would be absolutely amazing.

my guess is they won't because it will undercut their higher end cpus and commercial dual core opterons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sMashPiranha
I don't see why they couldn't, I'm sure there'd be a market for 1.8 or 2.0GHz x2's.
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Old May 28, 2005, 11:24 PM   #15
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Default Most sites STILL don't have a clue....

Most people who follow technology know that the vast majority of processors are fabricated to run at the highest speed grade currently released. Manufacturers know that a good number of the chips will fail to run properly at that speed though, so during the quality assurance process, the chips are tested. Those that fail are clocked to the next slower speed grade and re-tested again. This is repeated until the chip either passes at the lowest speed grade, or is written off as un-sellable.

Most people who have been following the dual-core information know that Intel has been rushing to get ANY dual-core processors out, without designing the chip from the ground up to be dual-core. So AMD has a design advantage at this point when it comes to dual-core technology and progress.

At this point, it's quite possible that AMD hasn't had a LOT of failures on their dual-core Opteron processors, and it's possible that the un-released X2 processors are also doing well when it comes to the quality of the released chips. This means that they may not have a lot of "failed" chips that need to be clocked down just to be sellable. We can't know this for sure, but unless AMD has managed to plug up all their leaks, we would have heard if there were manufacturing problems by now.

So, look at the speed grades that AMD is releasing. A 2, 2.2, and 2.4GHz, while the highest speed for single-core is at 2.6GHz at the moment. For each core, there is an additional HyperTransport link to link the two cores together, the same design used in the Opteron(single or dual-core), except that there are additional HT links in the Opteron dual-cores for multi-processor systems.

When it comes to applications, there is the current set of applications that support multiple processors. These tend to be focused on the workstation crowd, CAD and such. For this customer base, they have been spending a lot of money on dual or quad processor Xeon systems, which are EXPENSIVE. They don't look for the bottom of the barrel when it comes to which processors to use. If your system costs you $700+ per processor, and you put two into a workstation, plus the $300+ for the motherboard, then spending $1000 for a single dual-core processor that gives you comparable performance isn't going to be a problem. If you have a need for multiple processors or dual-core processors, then you will NOT be buying the lowest end.


In time, as newer and faster dual-core processors come out, the prices on the current processors will drop down to a level we can all afford. Until then, remember that MOST of us won't see a huge boost in performance, and for games, we will see the high end of the single-core lines beating the high end of the dual-cores for the next six months or more. Do we need to hear more "tech" sites that can't understand these points? The AMD X2 processors are really going to be competing against the Opteron 200 series single-core, except for the registered memory support, there isn't much of a difference.
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Old May 29, 2005, 08:56 AM   #16
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For plenty of people that are enthusiasts here, and ones who will pay the price; I'd rather go 3.7ee x2 than any amd at the moment. People seem to have forgotten about how the mind frame........all of a sudden, is focused on lower cpu speed and the fact that lower end intel models, at half the price for 1/3 of the performance loss....RELATIVELY (depending on game and IQ settings ) is simply a non-existant argument unless you are a hardcore gamer; and hardcore gamers are few in comparison to the average one..

With any new tech, there are older models of hardware that are unusable/obsolete; you cant use win64 with a 32bit sys, if you are using a 939 chipset, you cant use 940 etc etc.. Intel made more tech than china, heheh, with new motherboards/chipsets which is failure on the enthusiast side..OEM still REIGNS SUPERIOR for INTEL than AMD..

The existing motherboards, IMO, usually are replaced along with new tech, so I'm sure everyone here at some point had to upgrade; it's inevitible.

I would rather pay for a x2 pentium 4 EE model than one amd 4000/fx55 etc and deliver better frames at relativily the same cost.

When AMD comes with an equivilent product, I'll measure price/performance, longevity, heat, etc etc, though my immediate gain would definetly suit an Intel option.
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Old May 29, 2005, 10:35 AM   #17
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I forsee AMD launching a 2.0Ghz X2 later and maybe a 2.6Ghz X2.
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Old May 29, 2005, 05:16 PM   #18
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AMD doesn't have the same manufacturing capacity as Intel. it makes perfect sense to me that they would want to release dual core processors not to appear inferior while at the same time prefer selling single cores, especially 512k l2 ones, due to needing much less die space.
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Old May 30, 2005, 01:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by friskyolive
For plenty of people that are enthusiasts here, and ones who will pay the price; I'd rather go 3.7ee x2 than any amd at the moment. People seem to have forgotten about how the mind frame........all of a sudden, is focused on lower cpu speed and the fact that lower end intel models, at half the price for 1/3 of the performance loss....RELATIVELY (depending on game and IQ settings ) is simply a non-existant argument unless you are a hardcore gamer; and hardcore gamers are few in comparison to the average one..
I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here. Are you saying you would rather go for TWO P4 EE 3.7GHz chips compared to dual core from either Intel or AMD? If that is the case, then I feel there are some holes in your knowledge about current processors based on your post.

The current offerings from AMD single-core run as fast as 2.6GHz, with the highest speed single-core offerings from Intel running at 3.8GHz. There are issues with the architecture that Intel is providing at the moment that make it a worse design when running in a multi-processor environment. If you are going for multiple processors, then you are looking at an Opteron 200 or 800 series processor from AMD, not the standard Athlon 64 or Athlon 64 FX. On the Intel side, you said you are looking at the Extreme edition. With the Intel platform, you share the memory bus between the processors, so you will run into a bottleneck when addressing memory. You also need to address the shared bus for communicating between the processors. The Opteron 200 or 800 series processors address memory directly, with each processor addressing memory with no need to share bandwidth. In addition to this, the processors have a direct connection to each other with a HyperTransport link which also avoids needing to send data across the system bus. While there are a few applications where the higher clock rate of the Intel processors gives an advantage, this advantage is limited to certain applications and as AMD improves their designs, the gap is closing.


On the issue of clock speeds for the dual-core processors, the top speed dual-core from AMD runs at 2.2GHz for the Opteron(only .4GHz slower than their single core). That's not much of a drop in speeds per core. The top speed dual-core from Intel runs at 3.2GHz. If what you are running takes advantage of multiple processors, then the dual-core processors can be cost effective. It's true that you can get more performance from two single-core processors, but there are other expenses that come from having two sockets on the motherboard. But if you have a NEED for two or more processors for what you are doing, then you won't want to buy the low-end version of a dual-core processor.

Quote:

With any new tech, there are older models of hardware that are unusable/obsolete; you cant use win64 with a 32bit sys, if you are using a 939 chipset, you cant use 940 etc etc.. Intel made more tech than china, heheh, with new motherboards/chipsets which is failure on the enthusiast side..OEM still REIGNS SUPERIOR for INTEL than AMD..
The transition to 64 bit is still in it's starting phases. Your comment about "using a 939 chipset you can't use a 940" doesn't make a lot of sense. AMD doesn't change sockets unless there is a VERY good reason to. Going to DDR 2 for example would require a new socket. Quad-core might also because you need the extra pins to handle the data transfer to/from the processing cores and memory. Going forward, if you upgrade every two years, you can generally avoid doing a full upgrade. For example, socket 939 allowed you to transition to PCI Express without replacing your memory.

It will take a LONG time before 64 bit is REQUIRED to run a given application, since 32 bit versions will continue to be released for at least another three years or more.

Quote:
The existing motherboards, IMO, usually are replaced along with new tech, so I'm sure everyone here at some point had to upgrade; it's inevitible.
Most people buy a new system rather than upgrade their existing system. In general, if you don't NEED a new motherboard, someone familiar with building their own system will NOT replace their motherboard unless it's required. The key is the requirement to upgrade for whatever reason. Some people are still resisting the move to PCI Express for example. You are right that it's inevitable, but it would be nice if there wasn't an artificial reason to force the replacement of a motherboard.

Quote:
I would rather pay for a x2 pentium 4 EE model than one amd 4000/fx55 etc and deliver better frames at relativily the same cost.

When AMD comes with an equivilent product, I'll measure price/performance, longevity, heat, etc etc, though my immediate gain would definetly suit an Intel option.
Again, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. AMD may not have a low cost dual-core in the works right now, but if you really need dual-core, do you want a low-end version with clock speeds MUCH lower than what you can get in a single-core product? If the applications/games don't use a multi-threaded design, then you shouldn't be looking at dual-core right now anyway. The dual-core EE processor costs around the same amount as the dual-core Operon/X2 from AMD. You get NO performance benefits with the P4 EE dual-core compared to the dual-core AMD offerings. The only place Intel has an advantage for price is the dual-core LOW-END.

Single-core, the Athlon 64 FX 55+ or the 4000+ beat Intel in most applications. Dual-core from AMD is better than dual-core P4 EE, and is better than the single-core processors from Intel or AMD in a number of situations as well.
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Old Jun 3, 2005, 07:08 PM   #20
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Default Dual Core Xeon MP vs Xeon Ďrwindale

Hi, I've read this forum with interest.

However, I can't determine if I am best to buy a Dual Xeon MP machine, or a Dual Xeon "(not MP)

The Dual Xeon I am looking at has the increased 2MB L2 Cache, but it is not an MP series. I believe the codename for this processor is Irwindale

The Latest MP processor is similar but has the Netburst Architecture.

The applications I wish to run are multithreaded. ie 3ds Max, Photoshop, Vue Infinite.

I will have 4GB memory and only 2 Processors

Will use the ASUS NCCH-DL motherboard.

Any suggestions are welcome.

THanks
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Old Jun 5, 2005, 11:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarb
Hi, I've read this forum with interest.

However, I can't determine if I am best to buy a Dual Xeon MP machine, or a Dual Xeon "(not MP)

The Dual Xeon I am looking at has the increased 2MB L2 Cache, but it is not an MP series. I believe the codename for this processor is Irwindale

The Latest MP processor is similar but has the Netburst Architecture.

The applications I wish to run are multithreaded. ie 3ds Max, Photoshop, Vue Infinite.

I will have 4GB memory and only 2 Processors

Will use the ASUS NCCH-DL motherboard.

Any suggestions are welcome.

THanks
Irwindale's a great processor for the applications you'll be running. A bit expensive, and you *have* to go DDR2 with the 7520 chipset to saturate the 800MHz FSB (7520 is limited to PC2100, PC2700, or PC2-3200 support - i.e. no regular PC3200). Unless you know for a fact that the Xeon MP will offer you a huge performance boost in those apps I'd advise you stick with Xeon DP (Nocona or Irwindale). The cost to go with even 2x Xeon MP is significantly higher than 2x Xeon DP.
My recommendations:
2x 3.6GHz Irwindale
E7520AF2 mobo
4x1GB Reg ECC DDR2 400
You should be able to get all that for around $3000 if you know where to look. You may want to look into one of Intel's workstation platforms with the AF2 board and a chassis you want to save a bit of cash over buying them seperately...
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Last edited by ShaidarHaran : Jun 5, 2005 at 11:28 AM.
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