Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (rel. 22nd March)

[Lazy8s]

Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War

Ohhh... so it's like the next boss you face? Thought you were saying its much further in the game.

Well, it's not as far as I thought...you can get to it pretty quickly now that I've read up on it a bit, but there's a lot of content to cover in between if you choose to seek it out - fairly typical Fromsoft maps. I took the wandering route, exploring every path I could find so it only felt like I was much further.

I chatted with a friend of mine who just beat the game and she said this boss is only about the 50% mark, and I already have something like 35 shrines on the menu lol.

One small tip that isn't a spoiler - look far down all the cliffs while exploring. I found an area and thought "That cannot be a ledge grab texture all the way down there and across the chasm"...yeah it was lol. These maps are just incredible.

Anyway - at what I now know is the halfway point, I have this clown to beat, and 3 more bosses that are just beyond me at the moment, so I'll figure them out later...

edit: I meant idols, not shrines...another Nioh hangover lol

[Meteor_of_War]

Originally Posted by Lazy8s

Well, it's not as far as I thought...you can get to it pretty quickly now that I've read up on it a bit, but there's a lot of content to cover in between if you choose to seek it out - fairly typical Fromsoft maps. I took the wandering route, exploring every path I could find so it only felt like I was much further.

I chatted with a friend of mine who just beat the game and she said this boss is only about the 50% mark, and I already have something like 35 shrines on the menu lol.

Sounds like this boss you're on might not be your current "path of least resistance" maybe? Then again, you mentioned the other bosses you found are even tougher.

What I would say is listen to what Brainstew is saying about fighting aggressively in this game. Sekiro's ability to overpower enemies, as long as you can mix in your deflects, has been what I have found to be the best strategy so far. Once you understand the boss fight's patterns and quirks and know what to do, its all about putting on the pressure with your katana. At least so far in my playthrough. I hardly ever back away in fights, just deflect and occasional jump to avoid the perilous attacks. Oh, and Mikiri counter for thrusts is sooooo important to master.

Originally Posted by Lazy8s

I know what my biggest problem with the combat is in this game too. It's that Nioh muscle memory. One of my favorite builds in Nioh is a Shenobi lol, using a katana. So I keep catching myself holding L1 to block instead of just tapping it to deflect.

Might still be too early but I was wondering how you'd rank this game in relation to Nioh? I know you praise Nioh a lot.

[Meteor_of_War]

Originally Posted by KAC

I literally watched a few streams of this game and came in to say that, how anyone finds this fun is beyond me. I play games to relax and unwind and watching the streams made me be angry and rage quit lol. Man if I had about 10 years to live, I wouldn’t be wasting my time on this crap.

Game's not for everyone. Cool that you at least checked it out, but if you don't want a challenge stay far away.

For me, the allure of games like this is the amazingly rewarding highs you get from accomplishment. Of course with that also comes some lowly lows, but these kind of experiences you don't get in your run of the mill video game and I actually do enjoy trying to figure out how to get past a real tough enemy. Its almost like a puzzle and when you finally figure it out and beat it there's nothing else like it in gaming.

Been playing games a long time. Nowadays these games are all that really still gives me that old thrill of real challenge.

[metroidfox]

Originally Posted by KAC

I literally watched a few streams of this game and came in to say that, how anyone finds this fun is beyond me. I play games to relax and unwind and watching the streams made me be angry and rage quit lol. Man if I had about 10 years to live, I wouldn’t be wasting my time on this crap.

The gameplay is not that far off Witcher 3 on hardest.

[KAC]

Yup different strokes. I have enough tension in my life to go and get agitated with a video game. I do enjoy a decent challenge but these games test my patience too much. Btw compared to dark souls which I did indulge in this game looks crazy hard. Similarly, Bloodborne which again I indulged in looks easy in comparison.

[Meteor_of_War]

Originally Posted by KAC

Yup different strokes. I have enough tension in my life to go and get agitated with a video game. I do enjoy a decent challenge but these games test my patience too much. Btw compared to dark souls which I did indulge in this game looks crazy hard. Similarly, Bloodborne which again I indulged in looks easy in comparison.

Believe it or not, in Sekiro From Soft has added some gameplay mechanics that in theory make the game easier than Souls/bourne.

For one, the grappling hook mechanic. Whenever you find yourself in a bad situation you're never far from a high point you can grapple to and recover. Another is the stealth mechanic. If you make good use of it, you can clear out most areas of enemies quickly and quietly using stealth kills without even needing to fight anyone until you make it to the mini-boss, and even the mini-bosses you can usually get at least one stealth deathblow in on them. On top of that, the game gives TONS of upgrade options to make things easier. Lastly, they finally added a true pause button since no more PvP. You can now pause the action in mid-fight to look at your inventory and decide how to deal with the situation.

Its a tough game no doubt, but like all of From Software's other games there's just a barrier to entry early on but if you dedicate a bit of time and patience until the game finally clicks with you it becomes easier.

[Mangler]

In practice, bloodborne is still the easiest game though, you can get downright sloppy in that one and still make it out from tough situations.

[Lazy8s]

Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War

Sounds like this boss you're on might not be your current "path of least resistance" maybe? Then again, you mentioned the other bosses you found are even tougher.

Yeah, he's least resistance as I can't progress without beating him. In part, he's tough for me because I'm having such a tough time making myself use the controls properly. It's all me, not the game lol.

What I would say is listen to what Brainstew is saying about fighting aggressively in this game. Sekiro's ability to overpower enemies, as long as you can mix in your deflects, has been what I have found to be the best strategy so far. Once you understand the boss fight's patterns and quirks and know what to do, its all about putting on the pressure with your katana. At least so far in my playthrough. I hardly ever back away in fights, just deflect and occasional jump to avoid the perilous attacks. Oh, and Mikiri counter for thrusts is sooooo important to master.

Yep, absolutely - again, it's me overcoming 100s of hours in what my reflexes think are similar games, but they're not, not at all. I would have beaten him last night if I had one more gourd, but that was only after I got pissed off and just got relentless - I thought I was before, but Brainstew is exactly right - you can't relent on some of these guys for even a moment.

Might still be too early but I was wondering how you'd rank this game in relation to Nioh? I know you praise Nioh a lot.

For sure, Nioh is a magnificent game IMO, but it's too different to really make that call fairly.

Both, like Bloodborne as well, make good use of a visceral strike. That's all posture is, it's just shown and used differently.

Nioh has a built in God mode to get you out of trouble, Sekiro has the grapple and stealth + one other that you may not have found yet, but no God mode.

Nioh is a loot game with wildly varying combat mechanics that I just love where Sekiro is so limited with mechanics, but still manages to deliver an OP character if you're really skilled at using a controller and reading telegraphed moves.

Nioh also has some insanely difficult bosses, but the common enemies are really just cannon fodder until you open NG++

Then there's the few combat similarities that make it difficult to break that Nioh muscle memory lol.

I have to say they're both excellent games that scratch a different itch for different reasons. Right now it's all about Sekiro, but when Nioh 2 comes out I'll likely be just as happy dying a lot in that one too lol.

[Meteor_of_War]

Originally Posted by Lazy8s

For sure, Nioh is a magnificent game IMO, but it's too different to really make that call fairly.

Both, like Bloodborne as well, make good use of a visceral strike. That's all posture is, it's just shown and used differently.

Nioh has a built in God mode to get you out of trouble, Sekiro has the grapple and stealth + one other that you may not have found yet, but no God mode.

Nioh is a loot game with wildly varying combat mechanics that I just love where Sekiro is so limited with mechanics, but still manages to deliver an OP character if you're really skilled at using a controller and reading telegraphed moves.

Nioh also has some insanely difficult bosses, but the common enemies are really just cannon fodder until you open NG++

Then there's the few combat similarities that make it difficult to break that Nioh muscle memory lol.

I have to say they're both excellent games that scratch a different itch for different reasons. Right now it's all about Sekiro, but when Nioh 2 comes out I'll likely be just as happy dying a lot in that one too lol.

Cool, thanks. I actually still have not tried Nioh. I really have no excuse as its a multiplatform game and has had some cheap sales already. I was under the impression it was similar to Sekiro but now I'm thinking they may quite different. More I think about it, Sekiro has a lot more in common with Witcher 3 in that you're a set character focused more on character ability upgrades than loot.

Not sure why I haven't tried Nioh still, just haven't found the right chance yet to get into it. Might have to do with it being a Team Ninja game. They are hit or miss, IMO so I tend to be hesitant about buying their games. Sekiro is different for me though. Its From Soft on PC so that automatically puts everything else on hold.

[Lazy8s]

Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War

Cool, thanks. I actually still have not tried Nioh. I really have no excuse as its a multiplatform game and has had some cheap sales already. I was under the impression it was similar to Sekiro but now I'm thinking they may quite different. More I think about it, Sekiro has a lot more in common with Witcher 3 in that you're a set character focused more on character ability upgrades than loot.

Not sure why I haven't tried Nioh still, just haven't found the right chance yet to get into it. Might have to do with it being a Team Ninja game. They are hit or miss, IMO so I tend to be hesitant about buying their games. Sekiro is different for me though. Its From Soft on PC so that automatically puts everything else on hold.

If you see a good sale on Nioh, grab it even if you don't play it right away. Very worth it.

The Witcher comparison is a good one too. Plus some of those abilities come in super handy at times. Still a no regrets purchase for me.

That friend I mentioned earlier said she's starting NG+ - looking forward to hear her impressions on that. I didn't even know it had NG+ lol...not surprised though.

[Meteor_of_War]

Oh yeah, this game will have a NG+. Why? Because of course it will.

And I'm sure it wont be long before someone does a NG+7 no death run.

[Lazy8s]

Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War

Oh yeah, this game will have a NG+. Why? Because of course it will.

And I'm sure it wont be long before someone does a NG+7 no death run.

I've already seen a ~1 hour speedrun

I admit - it's insane how skilled some of these players are.

[Meteor_of_War]

Originally Posted by Lazy8s

I've already seen a ~1 hour speedrun

I admit - it's insane how skilled some of these players are.

I think what's more insane is how many hours per day they play the game.

If I had the time to waste I could get that good too.

[shrike126]

The reason Sekiro is "HARD" compared to other Souls games is because there is no leveling system in terms of the typical RPG character stats progression.

This is humbling.

In previous games, if you ran into a tough boss, you could get your ass handed to you a few times. Stop, and decide to come back later when you're bigger and badder and tougher. This might be because you decided to find a new weapon or armor set, and start dumping upgrade materials into it, and level it up to +5 whatever with extra fiery **** you sauce all over it. And then come back and let that boss know exactly how frustrated you are with him.

You could also decide to go farm up souls, or blood echos, or whatever and turn yourself from level 50 Mr I-Can-Survive-****, to level 100 Mr I-Ate-Your-Family and lay down the flex all over the boss by simply ignoring hits you otherwise would've disappeared under.

These progression leveling systems didn't make all boss encounters obsolete, but helped make certain mechanics and most fights "easier" in that you could progress your character, and develop or alter your play style, then come back and beat the boss that was giving you trouble.

Sekiro has NONE of this. If you want to make your character stronger, you need items that you can only get if you beat the boss. You HAVE TO BEAT THE BOSS to level up. Precisely the ****ers that you want to be leveled up in order to handle, you have to go through them to get tougher.

Another piece is that there really isn't a way to play "your way" at all. Fights are the same. You can swap out different arm mechanics, employ stealth, but once the blades are clashing together, everyone's fights end up being a balance of attacking and parrying/deflecting. That's it. You can't build up a play style that's shield focused, or 2hand sword strength focused, or maybe dual wielding daggers focused, or whatever you feel like you enjoy playing the most. Instead, you have to play the sword fights Sekiro's way, or not at all.

TL;DR - Sekiro requires that you beat bosses to level up, instead of leveling up to make bosses easier. And you have to do sword combat the way Sekiro intends it, you don't get to pick your own combat or weapon style.

[Meteor_of_War]

Originally Posted by shrike126

TL;DR - Sekiro requires that you beat bosses to level up, instead of leveling up to make bosses easier. And you have to do sword combat the way Sekiro intends it, you don't get to pick your own combat or weapon style.

I don't believe that's entirely true. Yes, you have to beat bosses to get the prayer beads for leveling up Vitality and Posture, but there are several different upgrade trees that offer different paths to take regarding enhancing your prosthetic, acquiring different attack moves, and passive abilities like better stealth and health recovery upon deathblows, to name a couple. Acquiring those abilities are simply done with XP points, which you get from fighting normal enemies. So you certainly can grind for levels in this game before fighting bosses.

Its by no means the level of character build customization like in Souls, but the game does let you cater your character to your liking in some limited ways. I need to finish a full playthrough to see how much the upgraded skill trees allow you to tackle boss fights easier, but I imagine they will help quite a bit especially after a first playthrough is complete and you know which skills are good against which bosses.

[Lazy8s]

Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War

I don't believe that's entirely true. Yes, you have to beat bosses to get the prayer beads for leveling up Vitality and Posture, but there are several different upgrade trees that offer different paths to take regarding enhancing your prosthetic, acquiring different attack moves, and passive abilities like better stealth and health recovery upon deathblows, to name a couple. Acquiring those abilities are simply done with XP points, which you get from fighting normal enemies. So you certainly can grind for levels in this game before fighting bosses.

Its by no means the level of character build customization like in Souls, but the game does let you cater your character to your liking in some limited ways. I need to finish a full playthrough to see how much the upgraded skill trees allow you to tackle boss fights easier, but I imagine they will help quite a bit especially after a first playthrough is complete and you know which skills are good against which bosses.

Completely agree. Vitality and posture upgrades in the limited amount you get before..say where I'm at, aren't going to accomplish much without mastering the combat.

I think Fromsoft has gotten about as close to establishing a level playing field between boss enemies and players as a dev could reasonably get in this type of game. You either know the ropes or you don't. And I'm still learning them, which is cool. I understand exactly where Fromsoft went with this formula and have no unreasonable expectations from the game.

[shrike126]

Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War

I don't believe that's entirely true. Yes, you have to beat bosses to get the prayer beads for leveling up Vitality and Posture, but there are several different upgrade trees that offer different paths to take regarding enhancing your prosthetic, acquiring different attack moves, and passive abilities like better stealth and health recovery upon deathblows, to name a couple. Acquiring those abilities are simply done with XP points, which you get from fighting normal enemies. So you certainly can grind for levels in this game before fighting bosses.

Its by no means the level of character build customization like in Souls, but the game does let you cater your character to your liking in some limited ways. I need to finish a full playthrough to see how much the upgraded skill trees allow you to tackle boss fights easier, but I imagine they will help quite a bit especially after a first playthrough is complete and you know which skills are good against which bosses.

This is all true. But to me there's a big difference between being able to be slightly better at stealthing, or having a new jump-slash attack, or having a prosthetic that goes all firecracker BOOM to disorient a foe for a second, versus being able to rebuild your character entirely.

You have "some" limited flexibility in altering your playstyle, but at the end of the day it's like someone took Dark Souls and basically said "Okay everyone you're all 2hand dex builds now. And it's a level 1 playthrough."

To me it's giving people the option to be flexible with customizing a playstyle but only within a very narrow style of play.

[Meteor_of_War]

Yeah, this game is not an RPG. Its much closer to Zelda games than Souls in the department of character builds.

I'm OK with that. Its much more focused, and I imagine it lends an easier time for the devs to create a lead character with a deeper background story that doesn't have to be so vague and faceless like the "chosen undead."

Dare I say it but I think I prefer this style of game over Dark Souls. Its just a tighter, more refined experience.

[Lazy8s]

Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War

Yeah, this game is not an RPG. Its much closer to Zelda games than Souls in the department of character builds.

I'm OK with that. Its much more focused, and I imagine it lends an easier time for the devs to create a lead character with a deeper background story that doesn't have to be so vague and faceless like the "chosen undead."

Dare I say it but I think I prefer this style of game over Dark Souls. Its just a tighter, more refined experience.

Too keep it fair, FS also made a really bad decision regarding this games set up, and that's putting a choke point in the middle of the game that only hard core players or a very lucky few are going to gett past. No matter how you slice it that's a bad move. I dare say I'm pretty skilled and am having a really bad time with this guy.

I just made another attempt, he had almost no health left and I still had 5 gourds. I dodged a ranged attack and literally got sucked halfway across the arena to his sword and died having already used my resurrection. I have dodged that particular attack several times before, easy to do except when a hitbox decides to show you the bit you didn't know was there before.

All talk of learning movesets etc aside, you don't put a boss like this in a place that's going to cause a large number of people to not finish the game. I'll get it sooner or later, but this is getting stupid.

[Meteor_of_War]

Originally Posted by Lazy8s

Too keep it fair, FS also made a really bad decision regarding this games set up, and that's putting a choke point in the middle of the game that only hard core players or a very lucky few are going to gett past. No matter how you slice it that's a bad move. I dare say I'm pretty skilled and am having a really bad time with this guy.

I just made another attempt, he had almost no health left and I still had 5 gourds. I dodged a ranged attack and literally got sucked halfway across the arena to his sword and died having already used my resurrection. I have dodged that particular attack several times before, easy to do except when a hitbox decides to show you the bit you didn't know was there before.

All talk of learning movesets etc aside, you don't put a boss like this in a place that's going to cause a large number of people to not finish the game. I'll get it sooner or later, but this is getting stupid.

I'll reserve judgment until I see large groups of players all struggling with the same boss.

No offense to you Lazy8s, I know you've got skill. But the thing about From Soft games is certain people might struggle with certain bosses, while others find them not as tough. But then that person might breeze through a different boss that those others find tough.

The game is still young. Just think of all those Souls bosses you struggled with but can now one shot any day you decide to fire up the game.

[Nunz]

The camera in this game is the worst and most egregious of any from game I’ve played. If it unlocks my target mid-boss fight one more ****ing time I’m going to smash my controller. I just rage quit for the first time all because of this garbage ****ing camera

[Meteor_of_War]

Originally Posted by Nunz

The camera in this game is the worst and most egregious of any from game I’ve played. If it unlocks my target mid-boss fight one more ****ing time I’m going to smash my controller. I just rage quit for the first time all because of this garbage ****ing camera

Happened to me too a bunch of times on a particular boss fight in a burning estate.

Safe to say it made the going tougher than it needed to be. I did however learn to recognize before hand when the game might lose lock-on and was able to adjust.

Annoying for sure though, especially when dealing with airborne enemies. Maybe its something they will fix.

[Lazy8s]

2 more deaths, same point in the fight and one was the camera. Horrible. The other was a legit mistake. I had to walk away.

Up to maybe 25 attempts now?

What's discouraging here is that he's easier during the last phase than the first. If I don't beat him soon I'm just dumping the game for a while. I play to enjoy, not get angry.

[Meteor_of_War]

Originally Posted by Lazy8s

2 more deaths, same point in the fight and one was the camera. Horrible. The other was a legit mistake. I had to walk away.

Up to maybe 25 attempts now?

What's discouraging here is that he's easier during the last phase than the first. If I don't beat him soon I'm just dumping the game for a while. I play to enjoy, not get angry.

Take a break!

[Lazy8s]

So I broke my own rule and went to the community - it turns out there are several well hidden, and some very open prayer beads just laying around various areas - some in the open and some behind hidden walls.

There's also a well hidden mini boss or 2. In short, I've collected almost enough beads for 2 more necklaces. I thought some of the guys fighting this boss I'm irked with looked like they had larger health bars, now I know why.

I also found yet another well hidden area...

[Meteor_of_War]

Originally Posted by Lazy8s

So I broke my own rule and went to the community - it turns out there are several well hidden, and some very open prayer beads just laying around various areas - some in the open and some behind hidden walls.

There's also a well hidden mini boss or 2. In short, I've collected almost enough beads for 2 more necklaces. I thought some of the guys fighting this boss I'm irked with looked like they had larger health bars, now I know why.

I also found yet another well hidden area...

Sooo tempting to look up where to find free prayer beads. I only need one more at the moment to level up.

I did find one behind a hidden wall - In the set of rooms right before the sculptor's idol before the Lady Butterfly boss room.

Also I went back to Hirata Estate tonight to take out that tough bastard in the purple robe above the bridge before you meet up with your father. First time I faced him he wooped me good, but after a couple tries beat him pretty quick. What worked for me was waiting for his sweep move and jumping on his head. It did lots of posture damage. I think three of those and a few well placed slashes had him pretty much cooked. The feather prosthetic you get up there looks like it might be good for enemies with nasty grab moves.

[Lazy8s]

Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War

Sooo tempting to look up where to find free prayer beads. I only need one more at the moment to level up.

I did find one behind a hidden wall - In the set of rooms right before the sculptor's idol before the Lady Butterfly boss room.

Also I went back to Hirata Estate tonight to take out that tough bastard in the purple robe above the bridge before you meet up with your father. First time I faced him he wooped me good, but after a couple tries beat him pretty quick. What worked for me was waiting for his sweep move and jumping on his head. It did lots of posture damage. I think three of those and a few well placed slashes had him pretty much cooked. The feather prosthetic you get up there looks like it might be good for enemies with nasty grab moves.

Nothing major below, just using tags to be safe.

I never would have looked them up if I didn't find one just laying in the open like regular loot. Turns out I missed a lot in areas I thought I had explored pretty well. Including an opening that, so far, has led to 4 new areas. So I was completely wrong about that boss being a choke point in the game. Also wrong about having to always kill a boss for prayer beads.

Makes me feel better about this game lol.

[Meteor_of_War]

Originally Posted by Lazy8s

Nothing major below, just using tags to be safe.

I never would have looked them up if I didn't find one just laying in the open like regular loot. Turns out I missed a lot in areas I thought I had explored pretty well. Including an opening that, so far, has led to 4 new areas. So I was completely wrong about that boss being a choke point in the game. Also wrong about having to always kill a boss for prayer beads.

Makes me feel better about this game lol.

Ha, yeah man like I said the game is still young. We have lots to learn!

[Lazy8s]

Originally Posted by Meteor_of_War

Ha, yeah man like I said the game is still young. We have lots to learn!

Nah, I'm done. I might revisit the game in a few months, maybe.

Short version:

Game world is amazing, best I've ever seen. But....

I've just died several more times due to nothing but target lock being lost and/or the camera going wonky.

Couple that with new mechanics and ways FS gave bosses to wreck you that I can't write here (major spoilers) and FS has gone way past over the top difficult to just plain stupid, as in how far will a player go before they quit stupid. I'm going into the game frustrated and shutting it down pissed off.

I'm well aware a lot of players will beat the game, but I believe most who buy it will walk away, and probably need new controllers too lol. I'm also aware some folks will defend FS because of their rep from other games and that's fine.

For me, this is just too aggravating and annoying. Hard pass on the rest of the game for now.

[Nunz]

That’s where I’m heading towards too grey. Some of the mechanics have gone from challenging to straight up not fun/stupid. Most people chalk it up to FS being FS but it’s truly poor design.

The camera is by far my biggest gripe.. it’s garbage