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Old Mar 6, 2020, 09:41 AM   #181
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bittermann
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If this debate is actual software vs. what one person sees differently then there is no point in arguing. Lets agree to disagree and move on.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 09:50 AM   #182
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If this debate is actual software vs. what one person sees differently then there is no point in arguing. Lets agree to disagree and move on.
I agree. I have already said lets agree to disagree multiple times. Which, I am partly to blame because it's hard to stand down and not respond when the attacks continue right after.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 10:07 AM   #183
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TSSAA 8x is the best method of AA to remove jaggies outside of DLSS. DLSS does this better without sacrificing image quality.

You also conveniently ignored the entire section where SMAA was used and DLSS still delivered the better, sharper image while doing a better job than TSSAA 8x for removing aliasing.

As the screenshots clearly shows. If you disagree, please post your own analysis with screen stills.

You said DLSS 2.0 still looked blurrier than native 4k.

Still waiting for you to demonstrate that, please.


They were using Uber settings across the board. Why are you denial about this? Makes you look desperate to be honest.

What's funny is that you continue to ignore the point that it doesn't matter what AA was used for the native 4k image, HU showed DLSS 2.0 still delivered the better image regardless of setting.

This is a fact you can't seem to accept. All you're left with is desperate arguments like "well my eyes sees this" and "my eyes are more sensitive than yours". Complete and utter BS.

You keep going down this rabbit hole and everyone sees how desperate you are for a counterpoint. You don't offer any analytical, objective arguments or demonstrations. If you can show me one example where DLSS 2.0 in either Wolfenstein or Deliver us to the moon is "blurrier" than native 4k, you'd have something to stand on. But you can't, because apparently no on else can see it except for you. So please, keep this digging this hole.
I didn't ignore anything, go re-read my edits made while you where typing this. Then agree to disagree and stop.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 10:41 AM   #184
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I didn't ignore anything, go re-read my edits made while you where typing this. Then agree to disagree and stop.
I am requesting an xample of what looks blurry compared to native. I'm being sincere here, if there's a screenshot or video that you can provide that demonstrates this, where you circle and show where its occurring, I can then understand where you're coming from. But everything we've seen from multiple sources from various people shows DLSS 2.0 is indeed quite up to par with native 4k quality, sometimes better, regardless of aa used.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 10:51 AM   #185
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I am requesting an xample of what looks blurry compared to native. I'm being sincere here, if there's a screenshot or video that you can provide that demonstrates this, where you circle and show where its occurring, I can then understand where you're coming from. But everything we've seen from multiple sources from various people shows DLSS 2.0 is indeed quite up to par with native 4k quality, sometimes better, regardless of aa used.
You are asking for something that I already said is impossible to do, because you want an example of what my eyes tell me. Your opinion is based off of what your eyes tell you. I already pointed out blurriness in the Hardware unboxed screen shot and you immediately discounted it with your explanation because that is how you see it thru your eyes. So that really leaves us with only one satisfactory option. To agree to disagree.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 11:01 AM   #186
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You are asking for something that I already said is impossible to do, because you want an example of what my eyes tell me. Your opinion is based off of what your eyes tell you. I already pointed out blurriness in the Hardware unboxed screen shot and you immediately discounted it with your explanation because that is how you see it thru your eyes. So that really leaves us with only one satisfactory option. To agree to disagree.


It is not impossible to do. This example shows where DLSS is better than native 4k in terms of addressing aliasing and image clarity.

Now, if you're seeing the opposite, it shouldn't be that hard to do a similar side by side analysis.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 11:11 AM   #187
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Something goofy about those images. I don't recall ever seeing a game in 4k where it was blurry like that. Only when FXAA was turned on. I'm on board with trying out DLSS and seeing it for myself, buy that image comparison seems a bit suspicious.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 12:09 PM   #188
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Something goofy about those images. I don't recall ever seeing a game in 4k where it was blurry like that. Only when FXAA was turned on. I'm on board with trying out DLSS and seeing it for myself, buy that image comparison seems a bit suspicious.
Well, how would a native 4k snapshot look compared to the same 4k image with a sharpening filter? That's basically what you're seeing, but it's not a sharpening filter, it's DLSS reconstructing the image with greater clarity than 4k in this case.

You can see the same thing with Deliver Us to the Moon. Extraordinary quality coming from this new version of DLSS, pretty much indistinguishable from native 4k (and sometimes better, just like in this case):

Since you have a 4k display you can watch the video in full 4k.







It's a bit odd that the best DLSS implementation is found in an indie game that's been out for like a year, but that's what happened. Originally launched back in October 2019, Deliver us the Moon got a massive DLSS and ray tracing patch back at CES 2020, and it really took the game to the next level.
It also marked the first game that implemented the technology in three tiers: Performance, Balanced and Quality. And, we can tell you first hand that when it's in Quality mode, you will not be able to tell the difference between that and the game running at native resolution without DLSS – beyond the massive 38% boost to fps at least.

https://www.techradar.com/news/does-...across-5-games
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 01:24 PM   #189
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it's about like adding RT & DLSS to half life 2
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 02:13 PM   #190
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It is not impossible to do. This example shows where DLSS is better than native 4k in terms of addressing aliasing and image clarity.

Now, if you're seeing the opposite, it shouldn't be that hard to do a similar side by side analysis.
Rehashing those pictures again? I already gave my thoughts on those. Maybe you should go read my answer again.

What's impossible is to give you an example that allows you to see what I see. I already gave you an example and you don't see it. Because you can't see it, meaning your vision isn't that acute, you don't believe it's there. And that's because you believe everyone has the same vision and sees the same thing. Even my son saw what pointed out to you, before I even told him to look there. So, what you ask for is impossible to do.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 02:20 PM   #191
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Rehashing those pictures again? I already gave my thoughts on those. Maybe you should go read my answer again.
You said DLSS 2.0 still looked blurrier than native 4k.

Still waiting for you to demonstrate that, please.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 02:30 PM   #192
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You said DLSS 2.0 still looked blurrier than native 4k.

Still waiting for you to demonstrate that, please.
Yep, I said that. No please read my edit. If you don't get it after that, then I don't know what to tell you. This is where you need to agree to disagree instead of beating a dead horse.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 02:43 PM   #193
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Yep, I said that. No please read my edit. If you don't get it after that, then I don't know what to tell you. This is where you need to agree to disagree instead of beating a dead horse.
I'm not beating a dead horse, but you're definitely beating around the bush.

I'm just looking for a concrete example (from your eyes as you say) where you see DLSS 2.0 is blurrier than native 4k. This is not an attack, or belittlement, or anything of malice. It's just genuine curiosity so maybe I can understand your point of view. Understand you're not going to get that across with "I see things differently than you", or by invoking bad analogies, but you can with some examples like I have done here. You have 3 different sources now (Hardware Unboxed, Digital Foundry, Tech Radar) who have done an analysis on DLSS 2.0 and your statement on the matter "Well it's still blurrier than native 4k" without anything to back it up with other than stating it's your opinion is a bit underwhelming, to say the least.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 02:56 PM   #194
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Still waiting for a game that matters

and is not a NV test case that they pored over to make it look best


........

also wonder how they will do with the RT that microsoft and AMD are putting out xbox and sony with AMD
and if this DLSS 2.0 will work with it at all

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/ray-tra...r-co-developed
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 02:57 PM   #195
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Still waiting for a game that matters

and is now a NV test case


........

also wonder how they will do with the RT that microsoft and AMD are putting out xbox and sony with AMD
and if this DLSS 2.0 will work with it at all

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/ray-tra...r-co-developed
Cyberpunk 2077?
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 03:03 PM   #196
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Cyberpunk 2077?
NV will be all over that

or they better be


i wonder how well this will work on a RTX card
Quote:
AMD hints at PS5 and Xbox Series X having the same ray tracing-focused graphics card
https://www.gamesradar.com/amd-hints...graphics-card/

and all new AMD cards ( Navi 2x ) will be the same RT system

i know if NV had the xbox and ps5 it would not work with AMD stuff at all

with AMD i don't know how far they will push it

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Old Mar 6, 2020, 04:06 PM   #197
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I'm not beating a dead horse, but you're definitely beating around the bush.

I'm just looking for a concrete example (from your eyes as you say) where you see DLSS 2.0 is blurrier than native 4k. This is not an attack, or belittlement, or anything of malice. It's just genuine curiosity so maybe I can understand your point of view. Understand you're not going to get that across with "I see things differently than you", or by invoking bad analogies, but you can with some examples like I have done here. You have 3 different sources now (Hardware Unboxed, Digital Foundry, Tech Radar) who have done an analysis on DLSS 2.0 and your statement on the matter "Well it's still blurrier than native 4k" without anything to back it up with other than stating it's your opinion is a bit underwhelming, to say the least.
I already did that and you didn't see it. So, you want me to find an example that zooms in down to the zoom level or pixels that will allow you to see and critique it. Just to prove to you I see something you can't. Not worth my time, and not sure if anyone ever will zoom into that level.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 04:09 PM   #198
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I already did that and you didn't see it. So, you want me to find an example that zooms in down to the zoom level or pixels that will allow you to see and critique it. Got it! Not going to happen.
No, you haven't done that. And it's not a hard request either.

You said DLSS 2.0 still looked blurrier than native 4k. Still waiting for you to demonstrate that, please. So far all the evidence regarding DLSS 2.0 (Wolfenstein Youngblood, Deliver Us To The Moon) from 3 different tech sites points to the contrary.

Screenshots, video, give us SOMETHING objective.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 04:32 PM   #199
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No, you haven't done that. And it's not a hard request either.

You said DLSS 2.0 still looked blurrier than native 4k. Still waiting for you to demonstrate that, please. So far all the evidence regarding DLSS 2.0 (Wolfenstein Youngblood, Deliver Us To The Moon) from 3 different tech sites points to the contrary.

Screenshots, video, give us SOMETHING objective.
Yes I did. Hardware unboxed, screenshots with the car, above the bike rack, the end the fence and the top of the pole right below it. You disagreed and made some excuses. Which I have already explained. There are many other such instances of blurriness in those same screen shots.. but you won't see it, so it's pointless to point them out to you.

There is no US, there is only You. But you can't drop it because you don't have that acute of eye sight, so the only option is to find a screen shot that zooms into the level that allows you to look at every pixel. Not going to happen.

Your a broken record. I state my opinion on what I see, you holler show me proof. Time to move on.
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Old Mar 6, 2020, 05:18 PM   #200
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Yes I did. Hardware unboxed, screenshots with the car, above the bike rack, the end the fence and the top of the pole right below it. You disagreed and made some excuses. Which I have already explained. There are many other such instances of blurriness in those same screen shots.. but you won't see it, so it's pointless to point them out to you.

There is no US, there is only You. But you can't drop it because you don't have that acute of eye sight, so the only option is to find a screen shot that zooms into the level that allows you to look at every pixel. Not going to happen.

Your a broken record. I state my opinion on what I see, you holler show me proof. Time to move on.
Please elaborate






I looked over every square inch of that screenshot. The bike rack is actually slightly sharper in DLSS quality mode. In fact, that dirt on the side of the car (just below the chrome line) is also slightly sharper and more detailed in DLSS quality mode. In further fact, I couldn't spot a section where the DLSS version was more "blurrier" than its native counterpart. Look at the bottom ground textures, also slightly more clear with DLSS mode. Care to elaborate what you're seeing?

What fence and pole are you talking about? Care to elaborate?

Are you sure you didn't confuse the two? They were very quick screenshots in succession.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 10:25 AM   #201
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Please elaborate






I looked over every square inch of that screenshot. The bike rack is actually slightly sharper in DLSS quality mode. In fact, that dirt on the side of the car (just below the chrome line) is also slightly sharper and more detailed in DLSS quality mode. In further fact, I couldn't spot a section where the DLSS version was more "blurrier" than its native counterpart. Look at the bottom ground textures, also slightly more clear with DLSS mode. Care to elaborate what you're seeing?

What fence and pole are you talking about? Care to elaborate?

Are you sure you didn't confuse the two? They were very quick screenshots in succession.
For What purpose? You already can't see what I have pointed out. So what's the point of elaborating on something you already can't see?

However, now that you have put the images up side by side, and I'm not looking at them go by quickly in a video, I see even more than I saw before. Blurriness (in some cases, the native is blurry in the same area, but the DLSS makes it more so). Missing details not even rendered in the DLSS image. (there is a reason or rather, a cause for this - explained below)

So, I will give you one more area, that to me is blatant. The lower level of the building between the fence, and the tree. the doorway, above the doorway, you almost miss that there is a vent or sign (hard to tell) in the DLSS image. The window, the DLSS doesn't even really show the slats in the top half of the window (might be blinds) because it's blurred them together. There is so much more of this thru out the entire screenshot. And keep in mind, this comparing against a Native, that is being blurred by the game's not so great TSSAA T8X rendering.

Now that the images are side by side, I can see one of the reasons there are missing details, and actually one of the reasons it appears crisper in some areas to you, and I see blurriness. It is because the DLSS renders the whole image in a higher light level, or rather, maybe the correct term, is brightness. I can see the difference in brightness/lighting (The Native image is rendered darker than the DLSS image), which makes the DLSS image appear different for each of us in a lot areas, because increased brightness removes dark lines/details/shadows/etc that are supposed to be there. The Slats in the window is a great example. I see blurriness because of it, you see sharpness, it really comes down to how our brains are wired and interpret what we see.

Now, If you don't agree, that's fine. Then just be respectful enough to understand we see things different and agree to disagree, so this can stop. Because in all honestly, I almost didn't reply to this because it comes across as bait. Not to bait me, but to bait other's into getting involved with this disagreement that should never have taken place.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 11:04 AM   #202
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Hmmm...

I actually prefer the 4k image on those last two screenshots. There's something about the DLSS image that appears slightly washed out, like someone cranked up the brightness. You can see it pretty clearly on the top of the yellow trash can, left side of the tree, and through the rest of the image where it gives it a kind of foggy look. The neon blue lighting isn't as crisp/vibrant either.

I mean, it's not bad at all. I'd certainly play through a game like that if I couldn't maintain 4k/60fps otherwise. But, based purely on image quality alone, the top one does look more realistic or "better" to me.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 11:13 AM   #203
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I was going to say the same thing but decided to stay out of it. The building on the right side is shaded more dark than the DLSS version as well. I do think that DLSS is providing very similar looks and I would be willing to deal with some minor differences for a 30FPS boost if I couldn't push 4K native on a game.

DLSS has transformed from useless to useful but I'm sure it takes time on Nvidia's part and it will probably never be perfect. We also can't depend on game developers to support DLSS any more than we can count on them to support SLI. I can see where both sides of the argument are coming from but we are beating a dead horse at this point.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 11:26 AM   #204
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Also worth mentioning. At 4K I can still see AA problems on a 65inch panel at 7 feet viewing distance but it's minor. Usually SMAA is enough to completely fix all noticeable Aliasing on my panel with no real noticeable hit to performance. I would never try to push TSSAA T8X at 4K anyway. Even MSAA seems like a waste of resources these days. Most of those AA TXAA methods do blur the image and are simply not needed at 4K or higher. 8k DSR should completely do away with the need for AA in the future and if I don't have that kind of power I would settle for SMAA or even FXAA with a minor sharpening filter. There are some exceptions like Resident Evil 2 remake where only TXAA appears to work but generally, I try to avoid it unless the game has really bad jaggies which is rare these days.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 12:43 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWR_Midnight View Post
For What purpose? You already can't see what I have pointed out. So what's the point of elaborating on something you already can't see?

However, now that you have put the images up side by side, and I'm not looking at them go by quickly in a video, I see even more than I saw before. Blurriness (in some cases, the native is blurry in the same area, but the DLSS makes it more so). Missing details not even rendered in the DLSS image. (there is a reason or rather, a cause for this - explained below)

So, I will give you one more area, that to me is blatant. The lower level of the building between the fence, and the tree. the doorway, above the doorway, you almost miss that there is a vent or sign (hard to tell) in the DLSS image. The window, the DLSS doesn't even really show the slats in the top half of the window (might be blinds) because it's blurred them together. There is so much more of this thru out the entire screenshot. And keep in mind, this comparing against a Native, that is being blurred by the game's not so great TSSAA T8X rendering.

Now that the images are side by side, I can see one of the reasons there are missing details, and actually one of the reasons it appears crisper in some areas to you, and I see blurriness. It is because the DLSS renders the whole image in a higher light level, or rather, maybe the correct term, is brightness. I can see the difference in brightness/lighting (The Native image is rendered darker than the DLSS image), which makes the DLSS image appear different for each of us in a lot areas because increased brightness removes dark lines/details/shadows/etc that are supposed to be there. The Slats in the window is a great example. I see blurriness because of it, you see sharpness, it really comes down to how our brains are wired and interpret what we see.

Now, If you don't agree, that's fine. Then just be respectful enough to understand we see things different and agree to disagree, so this can stop. Because in all honestly, I almost didn't reply to this because it comes across as bait. Not to bait me, but to bait other's into getting involved with this disagreement that should never have taken place.
There are some differences between the DLSS image and native image, but I'm still struggling to see more "blurriness" . Others are seeing color differences but in the areas you talked about, I can't see a difference in regardless to sharpness/blurriness. Could be that, as you said, you are interpreting the differences in lighting/contrast differently than me.

For me, I can see alot of improvements. Take these for example:














Native on top, DLSS on bottom.

You see the word "POST" with the DLSS image, whereas its fuzzy with native 4k.

You can see the dirt in the car a little sharper with DLSS, more fuzzy with native.

The window is harder to spot, but I can see more of the "lines" with the DLSS image.


Now, I'm not gonna beat you over the head if you don't see those details I do. I would prefer those pop out details, the differences in lighting and contrast can always be adjusted, but details cannot.

Keep in mind though there is a slight difference in angle and particle lighting when HU snapped their screenshots, so that might account for some of the contrast differences.
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 02:14 PM   #206
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 02:46 PM   #207
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 03:23 PM   #208
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 07:13 PM   #209
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Quote:
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The new DLSS implementation does work with 21:9



However, so far only Wolfenstein Youngblood and Deliver Us to the Moon has the new DLSS implementation. Doom Eternal will have it as well, though I don't think that game will have problems with framerates to begin with.
So if my monitor is a 3440x1440 one, would I be able to use DLSS to render supported game at higher res than 3440x1440?

So is DLSS = DSR + better performance?
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Old Mar 7, 2020, 07:49 PM   #210
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I asked that earlier on this page. You can only use DLSS to upconvert lower resolutions than the one you are gaming on. So if you are at 4K you need to use 1440P. Or if you are at 1440P you would need to use 1080P. DSR is still the go to for rendering things higher than your monitor supports. DLSS is for rendering things lower than your monitors native resolution to increase FPS.
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