Developer – ‘It Is Not Possible To Play Music On An Android Phone’

badboy · Dec 9, 2011, 06:35 AM

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/20...android-phone/

Quote:

Google’s multitouch operating system is far behind Apple’s iOS regarding musical creation possibilities. The lag is measurable: about 350 milliseconds. It seems insignificant but it is not.

This latency problem on Android stops developers from writing musical apps that could compete with those available on iPhone or iPad.

Didnt know about this... thats sad

wc326 · Dec 9, 2011, 07:55 AM

who actually play music on a phone

**DaJMasta** · Dec 9, 2011, 12:43 PM

Wonder if ICS changes this, I wouldn't be surprised if it improves a fair bit, but since it won't be out for older hardware there will be a better starting point for it too.

VW_Factor · Dec 9, 2011, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wc326

who actually play music on a phone

Seriously. You want a toy to play on the bus? (with a phone or tablet?)

Serious musicians who actually care are going to be on some sort of a machine with good audio recording and reproduction.

They have recording studios for a reason.

Sounds to me like some developers maybe upset they can't have their toy apps on Android to make more money.

**Trunks0** · Dec 9, 2011, 01:25 PM

... shouldn't that be an issue of the rendering engine used by the app? Not the OS?

***Lupine*** · Dec 9, 2011, 01:37 PM

Misleading article title is misleading. Should be:

Developer – ‘It Is Not Possible To Play Music In Real Time On An Android Phone’.

Title infers playback, which is not the topic / issue under discussion. I can see why some people would have an issue with this and want to see improvement, but for the vast majority of users this isn't an issue. Doesn't mean improvements shouldn't be made.

wc326 · Dec 9, 2011, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VW_Factor

Seriously. You want a toy to play on the bus? (with a phone or tablet?)

Serious musicians who actually care are going to be on some sort of a machine with good audio recording and reproduction.

They have recording studios for a reason.

Sounds to me like some developers maybe upset they can't have their toy apps on Android to make more money.

that's what i was thinking, those who has the knowledge to play music. will find any mobile apps lacking.. in everysingle way ..

maybe this article is about ROCK BAND or something lol

aviphysics · Dec 9, 2011, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wc326

that's what i was thinking, those who has the knowledge to play music. will find any mobile apps lacking.. in everysingle way ..

maybe this article is about ROCK BAND or something lol

The bigger issue with Rock Band style apps is probably the variance of the delay and not the exact delay itself. If it was the same for all phones a developer could calculate when the player actually hit the key vs when it was detected.

BTW I don't believe it is 350ms. That is a more than a 3rd of a second which would make almost all action games unplayable as well. I can tell for a fact using my keyboard app that it is not that bad. Maybe 35ms.

caveman-jim · Dec 9, 2011, 03:35 PM

Does this refer to composing music and live performance music like on some piano or guitar app or playing mp3/wav/etc?

MysticKiller · Dec 9, 2011, 04:01 PM

I use to have a HTC Desire HD, and it made the sounds immediately, whether it was typing, an app, games, what ever.

Why would it be different from a 'Music' app? Its the same principle, touch some pixels and a sound is made.

aviphysics · Dec 9, 2011, 04:12 PM

It is worth checking out the source link for more details.
http://www.musiquetactile.fr/android-is-far-behind-ios/
It sounds like the issue isn't input lag but something related to how it buffers sounds.

Quote:

The system mixing buffer is where the differences between iOS and Android are most apparent. On iOS, you have the ability to request any buffer size you want, and the OS will give it to you, if the processor is fast enough to handle it. (…) At a 44.1kHz sampling rate, a 256-sample buffer is about 5.8 milliseconds (…) On our latest Android devices, the minimum buffer size is 16384 samples long, which is about 371.5 milliseconds long.

I wonder if the problem couldn't be reduced by artificially increasing the bit rate. I guess that might require a faster CPU which could explain why some devices have a lower delay than others.

It still doesn't seem like it take a 3rd of a second for my keyboard app to make a sound after I hit the key. Maybe the guy who is complaining about the delay doesn't know some workaround that others do.

HAL10000 · Dec 10, 2011, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aviphysics

The bigger issue with Rock Band style apps is probably the variance of the delay and not the exact delay itself. If it was the same for all phones a developer could calculate when the player actually hit the key vs when it was detected.

BTW I don't believe it is 350ms. That is a more than a 3rd of a second which would make almost all action games unplayable as well. I can tell for a fact using my keyboard app that it is not that bad. Maybe 35ms.

The latency from a keyboard/input device will be insignificant from waveform capture and processing because an input signal will be dwarfed by the size of sound data. You're comparing apples and oranges here and for full disclosure, I'm thinking of Garage Band-type apps here. That's what the article seems to be implying.

Comments are informative too. Never knew much about digital audio and MIDI.

FX-Overclocking · Dec 10, 2011, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badboy

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/20...android-phone/

Didnt know about this... thats sad

Pure BS.

Elysian · Dec 10, 2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FX-Overclocking

Pure BS.

I don't think you know what you're reading...

Galmok · Dec 11, 2011, 02:54 AM

Quote:

The system mixing buffer is where the differences between iOS and Android are most apparent. On iOS, you have the ability to request any buffer size you want, and the OS will give it to you, if the processor is fast enough to handle it. (…) At a 44.1kHz sampling rate, a 256-sample buffer is about 5.8 milliseconds (…) On our latest Android devices, the minimum buffer size is 16384 samples long, which is about 371.5 milliseconds long.

A 16384 byte buffer doesn't mean it is first played after 371.5 milliseconds as far as I can see. It just means it plays for 371.5 milliseconds but the start of the playback can be nearly instant (i.e. no delay).

Sazar · Dec 11, 2011, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wc326

who actually play music on a phone

I do

eNforcer · Dec 11, 2011, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sazar

I do

Me too, it replaced my 80GB Zune. PowerAMP is an awesome app.

aviphysics · Dec 11, 2011, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galmok

A 16384 byte buffer doesn't mean it is first played after 371.5 milliseconds as far as I can see. It just means it plays for 371.5 milliseconds but the start of the playback can be nearly instant (i.e. no delay).

I suspect the problem is when one sound starts playing and then you want to add another sound to it. So basically you hit one key and then immediately hit another. The second key won't play for 350ms.

I still don't believe that there isn't some sort of workaround.

Elysian · Dec 11, 2011, 04:46 PM

If you've ever done audio recording then you understand the importance of proper drivers. It's obvious to me that Android's sound drivers are not optimized for low latency.

Hidavi · Dec 12, 2011, 10:26 AM

is anyone really professionally creating music on their smartphone?

Galmok · Dec 12, 2011, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aviphysics

I suspect the problem is when one sound starts playing and then you want to add another sound to it. So basically you hit one key and then immediately hit another. The second key won't play for 350ms.

I still don't believe that there isn't some sort of workaround.

This is of course only an issue if only 1 sound can be played at any given time. But I don't know the internals of android on this, but as it uses the Linux kernel, we know this issue is most likely only a driver issue (kernel) or a soundmixer issue (user space). At any rate, this is most likely not a hardware problem.

aviphysics · Dec 12, 2011, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hidavi

is anyone really professionally creating music on their smartphone?

Depends on what you mean by professional. Also, I suspect most people doing this stuff on iOS are using an iPad not an iPhone.

The original article made it sound like the main application was for people using tablets for live performances.

VVanks · Dec 14, 2011, 05:22 PM

This is the exact point I've been trying to drive home to people here but android fags here continuously are absent minded about this problem.

Hidavi · Dec 14, 2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVanks

This is the exact point I've been trying to drive home to people here but android fags here continuously are absent minded about this problem.

maybe its because its not a problem? I think its safe to conclude that we won't be suffering any hidden impending doom because of this

Elysian · Dec 14, 2011, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVanks

This is the exact point I've been trying to drive home to people here but android fags here continuously are absent minded about this problem.

Link me to a time where you've ever mentioned driver latency when recording sound on Android?

aviphysics · Dec 15, 2011, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVanks

This is the exact point I've been trying to drive home to people here but android fags here continuously are absent minded about this problem.

When have you ever mentioned latency during interactive audio playback? This problem is very specific to people using mobile devices as instruments in particular ways. Not something that would even come up for 99.999% of SmartPhone users.

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Dec 9, 2011, 07:55 AM	#2
wc326 Radeon Arctic Islands Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 7,306	who actually play music on a phone __________________ CS:S Office Server IP: 66.151.138.37:27015 http://sc2sig.com/s/sea/91428-1.png

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Dec 9, 2011, 12:43 PM	#3
DaJMasta Baffoonist Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Silver Spring, Maryland Posts: 14,487	Wonder if ICS changes this, I wouldn't be surprised if it improves a fair bit, but since it won't be out for older hardware there will be a better starting point for it too. __________________ Desktop: Intel Core i7 7770k : 16GB EVGA DDR4 2400 : Gigabyte GTX 1070 Ti Windforce X2 : Gigabyte GA-H270-WIFI : AudioQuest DragonFly DAC : Samsung SM961 NVMe 1TB SSD : Corsair Builder 500W PSU : Samsung 1440p 32" Monitor : Klipsch Promedia 2.1 : Windows 10 Pro x64 Tablet: Microsoft Surface Pro 4 : Intel Core i5-6300U : 8GB DDR3 : Intel 520 Integrated : 256GB SSD : 12.3" 2736x1824 display : Windows 10 Pro x64 HTPC: Intel Core i3 3225 : HD 4000 integrated : 8GB Samsung DDR3 1600 : Gigabyte H77N-Wifi : 120GB Sandisk Extreme SSD : 80W power brick and picoPSU150 XT : Integrated HD Audio : Scepter 32" LCD TV : Logitech Z313 2.1 : Windows 7 Pro x64 http://www.medpants.com/

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Dec 9, 2011, 01:25 PM	#5
Trunks0 Keeping an open mind Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada Posts: 21,354	... shouldn't that be an issue of the rendering engine used by the app? Not the OS? __________________ -Trunks0 not speaking for all and if I am wrong I never said it. (plz note that is meant as a joke) System: Asus TUF Gaming X570-Pro - AMD Ryzen 7 5800x - Noctua NH-D15S chromax.Black - 32gb of G.Skill Trident Z NEO - Asus DRW-24F1ST DVD±RW - Samsung 850 Evo 250Gib - 4TiB Seagate - XFX MERC 308 Radeon RX 6600XT - Creative AE-5 Plus - Windows 10 64-bit

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Dec 9, 2011, 01:37 PM	#6
*Lupine* Administrator Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: where I stand Posts: 32,673	Misleading article title is misleading. Should be: Developer – ‘It Is Not Possible To Play Music In Real Time On An Android Phone’. Title infers playback, which is not the topic / issue under discussion. I can see why some people would have an issue with this and want to see improvement, but for the vast majority of users this isn't an issue. Doesn't mean improvements shouldn't be made.

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Dec 9, 2011, 03:35 PM	#9
caveman-jim Deposed King of Rage3D Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 49,000	Does this refer to composing music and live performance music like on some piano or guitar app or playing mp3/wav/etc?

Dec 9, 2011, 04:01 PM	#10
MysticKiller Nuff Respect Due Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: England Posts: 3,194	I use to have a HTC Desire HD, and it made the sounds immediately, whether it was typing, an app, games, what ever. Why would it be different from a 'Music' app? Its the same principle, touch some pixels and a sound is made. __________________ I have a PC and a MacBook Pro

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Dec 12, 2011, 10:26 AM	#20
Hidavi I'm Way Up Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: THE BIG APPLE Posts: 26,568	is anyone really professionally creating music on their smartphone? __________________ *Now Playing:* Joe Dever's: Lone Wolf (NS) Final Fantasy World (PS4P)

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Dec 14, 2011, 05:22 PM	#23
VVanks Gentlemen Please... Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 5,972	This is the exact point I've been trying to drive home to people here but android fags here continuously are absent minded about this problem.

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