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Old Apr 28, 2008, 11:40 PM   #1
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ATI Technologies Assassin's Creed DX10.1 - Digging Deeper

Soon after Rage3D's initial Assassin's Creed DX10.1 investigation, Ubisoft announced the removal of DX10.1 support from the game via an upcoming patch. With little detail into the reasons of removal, the official statement on the cryptic side, questions regarding the differences in Image Quality (IQ) between the DX10 and DX10.1 pathways prompted us to investigate further.


Assassin's Creed DX10.1 - Addendum
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 12:01 AM   #2
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The only problem with that explanation is that particles (including soft particles, aka particles with depth masks) aren't done at the post process stage unless you are using a deferred renderer.

And I seriously doubt that a few missing particles would cause such a performance difference (unless Ubisoft is worse at writing code than I already thought).

Last edited by damicatz : Apr 29, 2008 at 12:09 AM.
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 03:13 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by damicatz View Post
The only problem with that explanation is that particles (including soft particles, aka particles with depth masks) aren't done at the post process stage unless you are using a deferred renderer.

And I seriously doubt that a few missing particles would cause such a performance difference (unless Ubisoft is worse at writing code than I already thought).
*cough* Nvidia *cough*



Wouldn't be the first Ubisoft or Nvidia sponsored game to suddenly lose a feature, then get it get it back once team green can support it.

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Old Apr 29, 2008, 03:23 AM   #4
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Very nice series of articles and investigative work. Lupine & Morgoth- your efforts are appreciated and I've really enjoyed both of the articles in this series.
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 03:42 AM   #5
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Nice article. Too bad Im planning to get it for the 360.
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 04:08 AM   #6
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An excellent article, which only goes on to show the massive difference in devrel strength between the two companies

In my opinion, while no-one can 'accuse' Ubisoft at this point of removing said support to 'fix' things (at the end of the day it's their software and they should know better what needs and doesnt need doing, regardless of any conspiracy theories out there), one cant stop people from thinking that nV might have had a hand in this whole story.

So, I suppose the real question(S) now are: will the dx10.1 support and 'bug fixes' be implemented back in the game before nVidia actually has dx10.1-capable hardware available?

If yes, kudos to Ubi for doing all that's necessary and supporting their product. If not, I'm not buying a Ubisoft game again, ever. 'Cause like I said, it's their software, but hey, its my money
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 04:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damicatz View Post
The only problem with that explanation is that particles (including soft particles, aka particles with depth masks) aren't done at the post process stage unless you are using a deferred renderer.

And I seriously doubt that a few missing particles would cause such a performance difference (unless Ubisoft is worse at writing code than I already thought).
Then it's good that AC, at least in its DX10 incarnation is most certainly a deferred renderer, and that the performance benefits manifest themselves even in scenes that do not involve the troublesome dust. You'd think we had explained these, especially the second part, in our article.
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 05:43 AM   #8
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Nice article and screenshots, thanks
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 07:06 AM   #9
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Everytime I read dust in the article the term "pixie dust" entered my mind from a silly point-of-view; it was like this pixie dust was the magic element of 10.1 and needed to be addressed -- can't have missing "pixie dust" in a game.

My main concern is the performance attributes gained by 10.1 and so far it seems 10.1 adds these with shader resolve. Wish there were other examples -- even synthetic examples - anything that would add more data here.
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 01:32 PM   #10
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hmm..my card doesn't support dx10.1.
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 04:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damicatz View Post
The only problem with that explanation is that particles (including soft particles, aka particles with depth masks) aren't done at the post process stage unless you are using a deferred renderer.
Any particular reason why it matters if it's in the post process stage or elsewhere?
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 04:42 PM   #12
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Any particular reason why it matters if it's in the post process stage or elsewhere?
Ubisoft stated that a pass was missing from the post-process stage in DX10.1 and that this was what caused the framerate differences.
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 04:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damicatz View Post
Ubisoft stated that a pass was missing from the post-process stage in DX10.1 and that this was what caused the framerate differences.
Why did everyone choose to read it like that?Why not read it as they probably intended it to be read:we have this DX10.1 thingie, it brings additional functionality, we can drop one(costly) rendering pass by taking advantage of that functionality and by doing so improve performance. Yey!

Don't you think that someone would've noticed the disappearance of one rendering pass that actually produced visual defficiencies(beyond the dust anomaly which seems to be related to how they coded one of their shaders)?I perhaps am blind, but if Kyle and his guys couldn't find it, odds are it isn't there(the IQ degradation).
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 07:06 PM   #14
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Wouldn't be the first Ubisoft or Nvidia sponsored game to suddenly lose a feature, then get it get it back once team green can support it.
Exactly. And its poor when the dev lies about it.

Like when ATI supported HDR+AA in Call of Juarez years ago (for the EU release), but the devs lied and said the game engine wouldn't allow it and disallowed it in the game menus. (even though users found workarounds to get it working)

Then when nVidia released its next batch of cards which could do HDR+AA, the devs said "oh we just noticed the engine can do it, we'll unlock it next patch".

LOL what a farking joke.
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 07:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Very nice series of articles and investigative work. Lupine & Morgoth- your efforts are appreciated and I've really enjoyed both of the articles in this series.
+1
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 08:08 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Qb2k5 View Post
Nice article. Too bad Im planning to get it for the 360.
Curious, why? Isn't it cheaper for the PC?

(Of course, if you're an achievement hunter I can understand that! )
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 08:46 PM   #17
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Curious, why? Isn't it cheaper for the PC?

(Of course, if you're an achievement hunter I can understand that! )
probably because amazon has ps3 and xbox360 version for $30 where pc version is for 40 bucks:
http://www.amazon.com/UBI-Soft-Assas...9519877&sr=8-1
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 09:38 PM   #18
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probably because amazon has ps3 and xbox360 version for $30 where pc version is for 40 bucks:
http://www.amazon.com/UBI-Soft-Assas...9519877&sr=8-1
oh damn! Why you didn't tell me about that pretty good deal before?
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Old Apr 29, 2008, 09:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
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oh damn! Why you didn't tell me about that pretty good deal before?
I post PC gaming deals not console gaming deals.
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Old May 1, 2008, 12:24 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Dave Baumann View Post
Curious, why? Isn't it cheaper for the PC?

(Of course, if you're an achievement hunter I can understand that! )
DAMN!
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Old May 1, 2008, 01:11 AM   #21
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I've had the 360 version since before Christmas when it was on sale at Best Buy for $35. Still haven't beaten it, though.
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Old May 1, 2008, 01:23 PM   #22
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I wanted it for the pc but I saw it used for the PS3 the other day so I couldn't resist. Been wanting to play it and my PS3 library is sad so I jumped on it.

On topic: Very good investigation guys, keep it up! Makes me sad I don't have a 38xx to check out this stuff myself.
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Old May 1, 2008, 02:32 PM   #23
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saving a screenshot to a compressed and overall reducing of quality format - (JPEG) is inaccurate for comparing AA and this review does just that...

...i read this article prior to reading any kind of comments or responses and intuition has me thinking that too much of a big deal in terms of marketing and hype is being put forth

Quote:
"Ubisoft are at the forefront of technology adoption, as showcased with the fantastic Assassin’s Creed title. In this instance our developer relations team worked directly with the developer and found an area of code that could be executed more optimally under DX10.1 operation, thus benefiting the ATI Radeon HD 3000 Series."


there is less feeling from this being a massive deal... its averagely 20% improved AA performance, but is that consistent? consider what all the frames tend towards... higher or lower?
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Old May 1, 2008, 02:46 PM   #24
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saving a screenshot to a compressed and overall reducing of quality format - (JPEG) is inaccurate for comparing AA and this review does just that...

...i read this article prior to reading any kind of comments or responses and intuition has me thinking that too much of a big deal in terms of marketing and hype is being put forth



[/i]there is less feeling from this being a massive deal... its averagely 20% improved AA performance, but is that consistent? consider what all the frames tend towards... higher or lower?
Yes, because an edge can suddenly receive no AA when JPEG is used. Really.

Do you have trouble accesing the high resolution pngs?You know, the ones we put up going through quite a bit of pain so ppl can actually compare IQ?The ones included in the article you're commenting about?You're the first one.

The last paragraph is incredibly hard to understand-what are you inquiring about?
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Old May 1, 2008, 03:03 PM   #25
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Yes, because an edge can suddenly receive no AA when JPEG is used. Really.

Do you have trouble accesing the high resolution pngs?You know, the ones we put up going through quite a bit of pain so ppl can actually compare IQ?The ones included in the article you're commenting about?You're the first one.
the reduction of quality by using JPEG compression changes the image, so its inaccurate. i am far from saying anything about AA being gone, but an image in JPEG format is less than desirable for close scrutinty... scrutinizing a similar looking picture is far from the real deal...in general

http://www.rage3d.com/image.php?pic=/articles/assassinscreed/pics/aadx101.jpg&comment=AA%20as%20seen%20on%20the%203870X2%20with%20SP1%20installed
(aadx101.jpg)

that's one of the image links i get directly from:
http://www.rage3d.com/articles/assas.../index.php?p=4
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Old May 1, 2008, 03:08 PM   #26
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the reduction of quality by using JPEG compression changes the image, so its inaccurate. i am far from saying anything about AA being gone, but an image in JPEG format is less than desirable for close scrutinty... scrutinizing a similar looking picture is far from the real deal...in general
Then reference the pictures from the addendum article.
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Old May 1, 2008, 03:08 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erek View Post
the reduction of quality by using JPEG compression changes the image, so its inaccurate. i am far from saying anything about AA being gone, but an image in JPEG format is less than desirable for close scrutinty... scrutinizing a similar looking picture is far from the real deal...in general

http://www.rage3d.com/image.php?pic=...P1%20installed
(aadx101.jpg)

that's one of the image links i get directly from:
http://www.rage3d.com/articles/assas.../index.php?p=4
You are aware that you're posting comments in the thread that's dedicated to an article about AC that adresses that very concern of yours, yes?One about IQ?With high-resolution PNGs included?Per pixel comparisons?

You are also aware that the article you're talking about had a different purpose, and for showing that an edge receives no AA with DX10 whilst it is being AAed with 10.1 a JPEG is more than adequate-it is not adequate for comparing overall IQ, of course...and so we come back to what I wrote in the first paragraph.
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Old May 1, 2008, 03:26 PM   #28
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i understand now, sorry

...still though there is better ways to relate your understanding to others... took a bit more paying attention cause of the lack of emphasis on what's overall going on... had to re-read towards the end of the first page and the page with the sp1/no sp1 comparisons

Last edited by erek : May 1, 2008 at 03:30 PM.
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Old May 1, 2008, 03:32 PM   #29
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i understand now, sorry

...still though there is better ways to relate your understanding to others... took a bit more paying attention cause of the lack of emphasis on what's overall going on... had to re-read towards the end of the first page and the page with the sp1/no sp1 comparisons
Ehm?
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Old May 1, 2008, 03:40 PM   #30
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Ehm?
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You are also aware that the article you're talking about had a different purpose, and for showing that an edge receives no AA with DX10 whilst it is being AAed with 10.1 a JPEG is more than adequate-it is not adequate for comparing overall IQ, of course...and so we come back to what I wrote in the first paragraph.
...i didn't get that from my first look at the review, and had to look "deeper" to understand the purpose of the article...
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