Automakers colluding to hinder clean emission efforts

[Silent-Runner]

Source: https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/8/2...daimler-emissions-cartel-fine-audi-porsche-eu

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Volkswagen and BMW are fined nearly $1 billion for colluding on emissions technology.

Germany’s three largest carmakers colluded illegally to limit the effectiveness of their emissions technology, leading to higher levels of harmful diesel pollution, European antitrust authorities said Thursday.

Volkswagen and its Porsche and Audi divisions must pay 500 million euros, or $590 million, and BMW will pay €373 million, or $442 million, as part of a settlement with the European Commission related to the cartel. Daimler avoided a fine that would have totaled €727 million because it blew the whistle on the plot, the European Commission said.

The settlement is another blow to the image of the German automakers, which dominate the high end of the car market but have lost some of their luster after Volkswagen admitted in 2015 that millions of cars it produced were fitted with software designed to dupe official emissions testers.

Daimler and BMW became tainted by the diesel scandal after the European Commission accused them in 2017 of illegally agreeing with Volkswagen on specifications for emissions treatment technology. Those accusations led to the settlement on Thursday.

The European Commission, the European Union’s administrative arm, did not accuse the carmakers of agreeing to deploy illegal technology. Rather, it said they had illegally agreed to deploy emissions technology that met minimum legal standards but was not as good as it could have been.

Among other things, the carmakers agreed to limit the size of the tanks used to hold a chemical, known as AdBlue, that neutralizes harmful nitrogen oxides in diesel emissions, the commission said. Larger tanks would have done a better job reducing pollution but taken space that companies preferred to use for audio speakers or other amenities.

“For over five years, the car manufacturers deliberately avoided to compete on cleaning better than what was required by E.U. emission standards,” Margrethe Vestager, the European Union’s competition commissioner, said in a statement. “And they did it despite the relevant technology being available.”

Volkswagen has since paid well over $20 billion in fines and legal settlements related to its diesel emissions cheating. Daimler admitted last year that its Mercedes-Benz cars had also been programmed to cheat on emissions tests and paid $2.2 billion as part of a settlement with U.S. authorities. Sales of diesel vehicles, which once accounted for more than half of the new cars sold in Europe, have plummeted.

BMW portrayed the settlement as a vindication because it did not accuse the company of emissions cheating, which it has consistently denied. The fine was lower than expected, freeing up €1 billion that BMW had set aside to cover penalties related to the cartel case.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/08/business/volkswagen-bmw-daimler-emissions-scandal.html

 

[Nunz]

So stupid. This is just the EU stealing money from these companies. We have gas powered vehicles pushing 40+mpg and we're worried about emissions testing that's becoming insanely restrictive because they're getting paid off by the companies developing electric vehicles. It's beyond corrupt.

 

[Silent-Runner]

the "fine" is a complete joke and if you really think that the other car manufactors aren't cheating their asses off, then you should maybe think again...and again. That aside, yes everyone is trying really hard to push the e-car-agenda (all around the globe). Still most of these cars are not affordable for the normal joe next door, the charging-situation is a desaster too. But hey, go green and save a planet today, yay!

Footnote: The part with 'stealing money' got me a good chuckle, thx, Nunz.

 

[Nunz]

I think they have every right to cheat as the emission requirements are completely ridiculous, and yeah, I'm sure everyone is working as hard as they can to get around it. If the EU Emissions had it's way we'd all be driving electric cars. IMO, gasoline engines are doing phenomenal when it comes to consumption and emissions. I know Diesel still has some issues with emissions but in the grand scheme of things it's really not that big of a deal. Lithium Ion mining and disposal is doing far more damage. It's just perceived as the devil because you have these electric companies pushing their garbage while receiving massive tax breaks at the same time.

Yes, the EU is literally just taking money from them for nothing. If anything, they're making double. The money given to them by the "go-green" garbage to push this trash, and then the money they're taking from the fines.

I think it's hilarious that the company that "blew the whistle" on this avoids any repercussions despite admitting they were doing it too. WTF

The best part is they're being fined for being in compliance LOL..

 

[Silent-Runner]

well, it's not quite that simple, to be honest, because gasoline cars do distribute to climate problems A LOT. But the answer obviously isn't to switch to 100% e-mobility for various reasons. As with every regulation, most of them are completely overdone, yes. Heck, you can't even drive into some cities without a sticker that states your car passed the emission test for it. I dunno how it's over there, but my guess would be there aren't any regulations that strict (if at all).

 

[dodger]

well, it's not quite that simple, to be honest, because gasoline cars do distribute to climate problems A LOT. But the answer obviously isn't to switch to 100% e-mobility for various reasons. As with every regulation, most of them are completely overdone, yes. Heck, you can't even drive into some cities without a sticker that states your car passed the emission test for it. I dunno how it's over there, but my guess would be there aren't any regulations that strict (if at all).

You can pretty much go anywhere as long as your stickers are current. Most stickers are good for a year. If you move to another state you are supposed to get everything re-registered in your new state within a shorter time window depending on state.

I thought some Euro cities even have blocks where there are no cars allowed, permanently and others the whole city center is a toll road. During the height of lock down we had temporary no car sections, hopefully some will become permanent.

 

[Silent-Runner]

You can pretty much go anywhere as long as your stickers are current. Most stickers are good for a year. If you move to another state you are supposed to get everything re-registered in your new state within a shorter time window depending on state.

I thought some Euro cities even have blocks where there are no cars allowed, permanently and others the whole city center is a toll road. During the height of lock down we had temporary no car sections, hopefully some will become permanent.

we have different stickers for different emission classes. And yes, if you have a sticker, then you're good to go.

As for the blocks, yes and no, there are a few cities that have that, but only very few. Most require a certain sticker to drive around the inner city. If you happen to have the wrong or no sticker and get caught you'll have to pay a hefty fine, mostly around 50 € or more.

 

[Elysian]

I think they have every right to cheat as the emission requirements are completely ridiculous, and yeah, I'm sure everyone is working as hard as they can to get around it. If the EU Emissions had it's way we'd all be driving electric cars. IMO, gasoline engines are doing phenomenal when it comes to consumption and emissions. I know Diesel still has some issues with emissions but in the grand scheme of things it's really not that big of a deal. Lithium Ion mining and disposal is doing far more damage. It's just perceived as the devil because you have these electric companies pushing their garbage while receiving massive tax breaks at the same time.

Yes, the EU is literally just taking money from them for nothing. If anything, they're making double. The money given to them by the "go-green" garbage to push this trash, and then the money they're taking from the fines.

I think it's hilarious that the company that "blew the whistle" on this avoids any repercussions despite admitting they were doing it too. WTF

The best part is they're being fined for being in compliance LOL..

Dude, what a terrible take. Emissions requirements too ridiculous? Have you seen the effects of climate change we're seeing regularly now?

 

[Nunz]

Dude, what a terrible take. Emissions requirements too ridiculous? Have you seen the effects of climate change we're seeing regularly now?

Poorly worded, definitely. Emissions, where it is now, is in a pretty solid place as it stands. I should have worded that differently.

With that being said, it's not 1970 anymore where emissions were absolutely terrible. The emissions from diesel motors are not main factors in pollution right now. There are far, far, FAR bigger fish to fry, especially from India and China (even the US), that the EU is not attacking .. likely because they're being driven by the go-green/electric companies that are lining pockets to push their agenda. Also, the EU are penalizing companies because they met the standard that was set, but did not exceed it. That's ridiculous.

IMO, all this does is end up with further taxes on normal people like me and you. The war on gas powered motors is beginning to come to a head. Look at the ridiculous "gas-guzzler" tax in the US, meanwhile the government is giving stipends and tax credits for those buying electric vehicles. Everyone covers their eyes and pretends the insane amount of Lithium mining, consumption, and destruction, isn't just as bad, or possibly worse.

I've always said that the best motors for the environment will be these small liter engines with turbos, and a small battery that self charges off energy harvesting. I hope that the incredibly efficient energy harvesting technology we see in Formula1 can trickle down.

I'd rather the devil we know, and have already manipulated and altered into something much more eco-friendly than it used to be, rather than what we are experiencing today. This entire green energy push is backed by people no better than the oil industry. At least we know what we're dealing with when it comes to the oil companies..

This is obviously just about vehicles -- for example I think Solar energy is an awesome idea. We should use these things to SUPPLEMENT .. but outright replacing ends up making it as bad, or worse, than what was there prior.

 

[Elysian]

Poorly worded, definitely. Emissions, where it is now, is in a pretty solid place as it stands. I should have worded that differently.

With that being said, it's not 1970 anymore where emissions were absolutely terrible. The emissions from diesel motors are not main factors in pollution right now. There are far, far, FAR bigger fish to fry, especially from India and China (even the US), that the EU is not attacking .. likely because they're being driven by the go-green/electric companies that are lining pockets to push their agenda. Also, the EU are penalizing companies because they met the standard that was set, but did not exceed it. That's ridiculous.

IMO, all this does is end up with further taxes on normal people like me and you. The war on gas powered motors is beginning to come to a head. Look at the ridiculous "gas-guzzler" tax in the US, meanwhile the government is giving stipends and tax credits for those buying electric vehicles. Everyone covers their eyes and pretends the insane amount of Lithium mining, consumption, and destruction, is just as bad, or possibly worse.

I've always said that the best motors for the environment will be these small liter engines with turbos, and a small battery that self charges off energy harvesting. I hope that the incredibly efficient energy harvesting technology we see in Formula1 can trickle down.

I'd rather the devil we know, and have already manipulated and altered into something much more eco-friendly than it used to be, rather than what we are experiencing today. This entire green energy push is backed by people no better than the oil industry. At least we know what we're dealing with when it comes to the oil companies..

India and China's emissions are almost entirely because they're making so many things for the western world, it's our pollution we're exporting to other countries. It's also irrelevant to the conversation. Emissions requirements aren't overly stringent at all, if they were then when Trump rolled them back we would have seen companies also roll them back. That didn't happen. Companies colluding to work against regulations and laws shouldn't just be ignored, that's the ridiculous take I was pointing out. Plenty of laws out there that companies don't like, but when they're for the greater good like emissions they absolutely should not be skirted. And why are we allowing corporations to plunder the planet in the first place? That's what I find so ridiculous about your take. We've already seen so much damage over the last century, and it's only going to get worse, and you're arguing on behalf of the plunderers.

If these automakers didn't want a $1bil fine, they probably shouldn't have colluded like this.

 

[Nunz]

I was still making edits by the time you replied. Sorry.

Good point about the Trump rollback, though I wonder if it would have been more work to roll them back at that point. It's definitely a great point though.

Do you think motor vehicle companies like Volkswagen or BMW are really plunderers, though? The oil companies.. yeah I agree with that one, for sure, but so are the "go-green" corporations. We're just beginning and it's very quickly becoming obvious that Lithium mining is absolutely terrible for the environment.

Blaming China's emissions on the western world is not something I agree on. The lack of regulation is more of an issue. That's why many companies go there for production, but that's not the companies fault. That's China's fault. No one would go there if they had the same regulations as everyone else. That is entirely on China, and they do it for a reason. That's beyond just cars though of course. I think there is a standard that should be set, but the focus and war on gasoline powered motors has taken far too much of the spotlight when the emissions are very much under control already. There are far bigger contributors in terms of environmental damage and/or C02 emission besides diesel and gasoline powered motors.

In the case of cars, tighter emission requirements are for the greater good until all they do is make it impossible to have motors that aren't electrically powered.. which is being driven by companies that want to get rid of their competition.

The companies were working against regulations and laws ... by meeting the standard set by said regulations and laws? Were they all agreeing to do the minimum? Yes, but if you wanted more out of the companies, then the bar should have been raised to reflect that. Obviously the court and the EU commission thought differently, but I also don't have my pockets filled with millions of dollars from corporations that have an active interest in seeing this technology die.

 

[Elysian]

I was still making edits by the time you replied. Sorry.

Good point about the Trump rollback, though I wonder if it would have been more work to roll them back at that point. It's definitely a great point though.

Do you think motor vehicle companies like Volkswagen or BMW are really plunderers, though? The oil companies.. yeah I agree with that one, for sure, but so are the "go-green" corporations. We're just beginning and it's very quickly becoming obvious that Lithium mining is absolutely terrible for the environment.

Blaming China's emissions on the western world is not something I agree on. The lack of regulation is more of an issue. That's why many companies go there for production, but that's not the companies fault. That's China's fault. No one would go there if they had the same regulations as everyone else. That is entirely on China, and they do it for a reason. That's beyond just cars though of course. I think there is a standard that should be set, but the focus and war on gasoline powered motors has taken far too much of the spotlight when the emissions are very much under control already. There are far bigger contributors in terms of environmental damage and/or C02 emission besides diesel and gasoline powered motors.

In the case of cars, tighter emission requirements are for the greater good until all they do is make it impossible to have motors that aren't electrically powered.. which is being driven by companies that want to get rid of their competition.

The companies were working against regulations and laws ... by meeting the standard set by said regulations and laws? Were they all agreeing to do the minimum? Yes, but if you wanted more out of the companies, then the bar should have been raised to reflect that. Obviously the court and the EU commission thought differently, but I also don't have my pockets filled with millions of dollars from corporations that have an active interest in seeing this technology die.

VW just got busted a few years back for literally using cheat devices to circumvent emissions regulations, yeah, they're plunderers.

This technology NEEDS to die, and will die after the corporations plunder the Earth of all the oil.

 

[Nunz]

OK, fair point about VW, though I don't think the damage they did with cheating emissions is anywhere even remotely relevant on the scale of profiteering off of plundering the planet. Like I said, there are massively bigger fish to fry.

As for the technology .. what's the alternative? We're rushing into massive batteries that still require natural resources that are finite and destructive/harmful to the environment, and also lose efficiency over time. Motors can last 20+ years .. we won't be saying that about the battery of the Tesla 10 years down the road when the original 300mile range is now down to 100 (just an example, not being literal, I have not researched data on the degradation of Tesla batteries, but it's a battery, so it will degrade, that is a fact).

Ultimately though, this is why I've said you don't replace one with the other. You supplement, reduce the use of each one individually, so that you can stretch the supply. The direction we are heading right now .. I have a feeling we'll realize it was a massive mistake in 30 years.

 

[Elysian]

I don't see anyone rushing into anything. EVs are still pretty uncommon, Tesla can't even turn a profit.

 

[Nunz]

Huge rebates and tax credits? Massive push for all-electric vehicles promised from the big motor vehicle companies? High taxes for V8s? I'd say the rush is here. We're living it right now .. the effects will be noticed in the next few years.

I see Tesla's regularly and lots of the Hybrids. I like Hybrids though, I think they're the way to go. I rented a Hyundai Ascent (I believe it was Ascent. I know it was a Hyundai, lol) with the small 4cylinder and battery. I averaged ~50mpg on the highway and the battery stayed charged from some of the city driving and braking. I thought it was great.

Tesla might turn a profit if it focused on the car and not all the gaudy bling bullshit. That's it's own fault, imo. I'm not a fan of Tesla at all, or Elon Musk. That dude is a ****ing nutjob .. talk about a plunderer.. there's one.

 

[Elysian]

Huge rebates and tax credits? Massive push for all-electric vehicles promised from the big motor vehicle companies? High taxes for V8s? I'd say the rush is here. We're living it right now .. the effects will be noticed in the next few years.

I see Tesla's regularly and lots of the Hybrids. I like Hybrids though, I think they're the way to go. I rented a Hyundai Ascent (I believe it was Ascent. I know it was a Hyundai, lol) with the small 4cylinder and battery. I averaged ~50mpg on the highway and the battery stayed charged from some of the city driving and braking. I thought it was great.

Tesla might turn a profit if it focused on the car and not all the gaudy bling bullshit. That's it's own fault, imo. I'm not a fan of Tesla at all, or Elon Musk. That dude is a ****ing nutjob .. talk about a plunderer.. there's one.

I'm also not a Tesla fan at all, Musk is a dirtbag. Rebates don't mean there's a rush, it's just subtle encouragement. I got rebates on my solar panels too, doesn't mean we're rushing to solar power. I got tax credits for buying my house as well, these sorts of things are common. High taxes on V8s? The Gas Guzzler Tax has been in effect since 1978, that's not something that just came about.

 

[Nunz]

It's been in effect but the price of that tax has become absolutely absurd in recent years.

The size of the rebates for electric vehicles is not what I'd call subtle.

I'm all for solar power and it makes sense to get credits back for that -- it's a large investment to have solar panels installed .. talking about an electric vehicle is a bit different, imo, but I digress.

Good discussion and good points

 

[Elysian]

I mean, if the tax credit for solar power makes sense then so does the rebate for electrified vehicles. Electric vehicles are vastly more efficient than gas in their current form, they cut down on energy usage pretty significantly. Only 12-30% of energy in gas is actually used to move the car, where it's nearly 80% for EV's. While battery tech still has a ways to go, there's no denying that EVs are more efficient. Friend of mine switched to a Tesla Model 3, his power bill went up $15-20 a month, while he's no longer having to buy premium for his Fiesta ST, spending more.

There's still not a huge rush to go EV though (on the demand side of the equation), as most people still can't afford the good ones.

 

[bill dennison]

i think the ****ing tax credit for solar power are keeping prices higher .

i put a 100 bucks down on a ford f150 lightning reservation

i will see next year maybe


but if i get the f150 lightning i need solar power to fuel it

 

[dodger]

i think the ****ing tax credit for solar power are keeping prices higher .

i put a 100 bucks down on a ford f150 lightning reservation

i will see next year maybe


but if i get the f150 lightning i need solar power to fuel it

Awesome Bill. Besides being a vehicle the idea of it also being a whole house UPS is appealing seeing how the electric grid in my part of country isn't the best. If you get an electric plan like free nights and weekends and only charge up at night it might be worth the extra you pay during the day (pretty sure they don't let you have this kinda plan if you have solar).