the real deal behind the x-box controller
- Thread starter dustinyo
- Start date
Buggy Loop said:DOA3 could be pulled off on ps2 but you would need to triple your dev team and twice you development time
As for DOA3 pushing more polygons than any ps2 games to date, I doubt it. Especially since VF4 on a naomi2 board looks as good if not MORE detailed than DOA3 (on characters at least) and is pushing around 10M polygons. 3 to 4 times more than ps2 ? Lol, thats PR bullshit right there.
Of course DOA3 IS being released on PS2, according to the interview, but apparently the Xbox version is indeed capiable of higher polygon count models.
I'm curious as to why you would call it PR bullshit, since it's an independant developer making these comments - a developer which is developing for both PS2 AND Xbox, not Sony or Microsoft.
Buggy Loop
New member
? Cause i've seen ps2 pushing around 15M polygons, you are trying to tell me that DOA3 is pushing around 40 to 60M polygons? no chance in hell. No matter who that guy is, its simple PR Bs, that or he doesnt know wth he's talking about. If he would of talked about the ammount of textures, the resolution of the textures or the ammount of texture layers, per-pixel lighting etc etc, THEN i would of understood why xbox is better than ps2, but saying its pushing 3 to 4 times the ammount of poly than any ps2 games is total BS.
Im not sure how much texture layers DOA3 is pushing on some scenes but ps2 could pull it off with a major fillrate hit.
Tecmo is also making a fighting game on gamecube, which of course is DOA (their only fighting franchise). Dont know what version it will be, but i bet 10$ tecmo will just take DOA3, slap the word "hardcore" on it and call it a new game
Im not sure how much texture layers DOA3 is pushing on some scenes but ps2 could pull it off with a major fillrate hit.
Tecmo is also making a fighting game on gamecube, which of course is DOA (their only fighting franchise). Dont know what version it will be, but i bet 10$ tecmo will just take DOA3, slap the word "hardcore" on it and call it a new game
Buggy Loop said:? Cause i've seen ps2 pushing around 15M polygons, you are trying to tell me that DOA3 is pushing around 40 to 60M polygons? no chance in hell. No matter who that guy is, its simple PR Bs, that or he doesnt know wth he's talking about. If he would of talked about the ammount of textures, the resolution of the textures or the ammount of texture layers, per-pixel lighting etc etc, THEN i would of understood why xbox is better than ps2, but saying its pushing 3 to 4 times the ammount of poly than any ps2 games is total BS.
Im not sure how much texture layers DOA3 is pushing on some scenes but ps2 could pull it off with a major fillrate hit.
Tecmo is also making a fighting game on gamecube, which of course is DOA (their only fighting franchise). Dont know what version it will be, but i bet 10$ tecmo will just take DOA3, slap the word "hardcore" on it and call it a new game
I presume he knows what he's talking about, he is the lead for Team Ninja (of Tecmo) which did Dead or Alive, DOA2, and DOA3.
He didn't say that XBOX was pushing 3 to 4 times the polys of any PS2 game. He said that the Alpha version of DOA3 for XBOX was pushing 3 to 4 times the polys of the final version of DOA3 for PS2.
By the way, what on PS2 have you seen that is pushing 15 million polygons (per second, I presume)?
The interview is interesting, in any case, and is here:
IGN interview
Buggy Loop
New member
jax and dexter is pushing an average of 13M poly now and will according to my "friend" push near 20/23m poly in the final version.
As for "he knows his stuffs" argument, it doesnt hold much water in this business. Give any developers a nice money hat and of course he'll rave about your console. Example? Lorne lanning was raving about how much ps2 was so kickass and how xbox wouldnt be able to do what he's doing (big joke considering munch is pretty substandard), now that MS bought him he's raving how much xbox rules over ps2. By his status you would think he knows his stuffs, but that doesnt mean anything when they start to talk PR style.
If tecmo didnt push more than 3M poly on their ps2 version, then i dont know what the hell they've got their devs at, even a renderware could pull more out of ps2 by now.
Anyway, pretty moot point, doa3 looks good, thats the point no?
But its nothing next to what we'll see in 1 to 2 years on gamecube/xbox, graphics like DOA3 are the tip of the iceberg.
As for "he knows his stuffs" argument, it doesnt hold much water in this business. Give any developers a nice money hat and of course he'll rave about your console. Example? Lorne lanning was raving about how much ps2 was so kickass and how xbox wouldnt be able to do what he's doing (big joke considering munch is pretty substandard), now that MS bought him he's raving how much xbox rules over ps2. By his status you would think he knows his stuffs, but that doesnt mean anything when they start to talk PR style.
If tecmo didnt push more than 3M poly on their ps2 version, then i dont know what the hell they've got their devs at, even a renderware could pull more out of ps2 by now.
Anyway, pretty moot point, doa3 looks good, thats the point no?
But its nothing next to what we'll see in 1 to 2 years on gamecube/xbox, graphics like DOA3 are the tip of the iceberg.
Buggy Loop said:jax and dexter is pushing an average of 13M poly now and will according to my "friend" push near 20/23m poly in the final version.
As for "he knows his stuffs" argument, it doesnt hold much water in this business. Give any developers a nice money hat and of course he'll rave about your console. Example? Lorne lanning was raving about how much ps2 was so kickass and how xbox wouldnt be able to do what he's doing (big joke considering munch is pretty substandard), now that MS bought him he's raving how much xbox rules over ps2. By his status you would think he knows his stuffs, but that doesnt mean anything when they start to talk PR style.
If tecmo didnt push more than 3M poly on their ps2 version, then i dont know what the hell they've got their devs at, even a renderware could pull more out of ps2 by now.
Anyway, pretty moot point, doa3 looks good, thats the point no?
But its nothing next to what we'll see in 1 to 2 years on gamecube/xbox, graphics like DOA3 are the tip of the iceberg.
Which friend is this?
DOA3 is not substandard from what I've seen so far. No matter what your opinion or my opinion DOA2 was and I am sure DOA3 will be a strong example of well done realtime 3d graphics engineering, whatever platform it's running on. Team Ninja has done a very good job so far, and I don't see any reason to disbelieve something the engineering lead of the group says.
To be honest, so far this is the only number I've heard from an actual developer with expirence on multiple platforms (dreamcast, ps2, xbox, gamecube, etc) giving even round numbers (3-4x) on the comparison between xbox and ps2 based on an actual, operating game engine. The hardware vendors do make claims of performance but really the only ones with any authority to say (IMHO) are software developers who have developed an engine for both platforms.
When a developer with the kind of record that Team Ninja has offers an opinion, I'm at least willing to listen to it without dismissing it out of hand because there's just "no way" that xbox could outperform a 2 year old platform by that much. Perhaps it can, perhaps not, but since I personally don't have any expirence developing for PS2, nor do I know anyone who does, the only way I can get a feel for the differences in performance is to hear what the developers have to say.
As far as "give a developer a money hat" - it seems that everyone has a deal with Tecmo, Sega had DOA2 in the US exclusive for something like 6 months, while DOA2 was on PS2 in japan, followed by the PS2 hardcore US release, and now we're hearing about DOA3 on PS2 and XBOX. This does not sound like a developer that's going to sing praises to one platform or another because it has a deal with the console maker.
Buggy Loop
New member
uh, you just wasted all your time typing that
Re-read what i said about substandard, i was talking about lorne lanning's game, which is munch.
As for that guy knowing his stuffs, its questionnable. Even Hideo Kojima said there is barely a difference between ps2 and xbox. The difference is xbox is easy to pull off great graphics while ps2 will take you months after months for the same effect. That doesnt mean ps2 is underpowered.
If tecmo couldnt pull out more out of ps2 with their DOA3 version, its their problem, shouldnt take a back stab at sony cause they didnt work enough for it.
Re-read what i said about substandard, i was talking about lorne lanning's game, which is munch.
As for that guy knowing his stuffs, its questionnable. Even Hideo Kojima said there is barely a difference between ps2 and xbox. The difference is xbox is easy to pull off great graphics while ps2 will take you months after months for the same effect. That doesnt mean ps2 is underpowered.
If tecmo couldnt pull out more out of ps2 with their DOA3 version, its their problem, shouldnt take a back stab at sony cause they didnt work enough for it.
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Buggy Loop said:
If you read the interview, he makes the statement that PS2 is also easy to program for, "at least for Team Ninja". He takes the stance that PS2 developers are spending too much time complaining about the difficulty of programming PS2 and not enough time developing on PS2.
He also says that though xbox is fairly easy to develop for, it does get more difficult in the later stages of game development, or something to that effect.
I haven't done much DX 8 D3D programming yet, but I played around with DX7's direct3d, and I do remember (this is back in NV10 days) actually making good use of the geometry accelleration required jumping through some hoops - write only indexed vertex buffers, allocated in video local memory, arranged in strips or fans. I also remember being fairly suprised that when I traced into the D3D matrix multiply functions that they wern't 3dnow or sse optimized at all, it looked like regular fpu floating point, which seemed odd to me.
Developers of course generally either write their own matrix multiply and dot product functions but if it's the case that xbox's DX8 doesn't make use of SSE and developers are blindly making use of non SSE optimized functions that there is a performance hit. Remember that even in the case that there is onboard hardware geometry accelleration, the conjugate matricies (rotation, transformation, scaleing, etc) must still be multiplied outside of the hardware geometry accelleration, in the case that you have many small particles or a high number of low-polygon count models this is a signifigant performance hit. I remember getting the best performance out of NV10 with a small number of very large models (65535 verticies), because of course you only have to do minimal matrix math on the CPU, and the hardware transform handles the matrix * vector multiplies for you.
I am aware that DX8 has changed things and I look forward to playing around with it, but the point is there are still performance pitfalls on xbox that developers will (I'm sure) watch out for.
dsherman
New member
FUN
FUN
This is really going to be a Fun 2 years. I don't think the PS/2 is going to make it becaue of it's dual processing. It's very hard to program for. Nintendo made that mistake with the N64 and lost some 3rd party developers. Nintendo didn't make that mistake twice. The gamecube is supposed to be very easy to program. And it's internal workings are small and in-expensive to manufacture. Also I hear nontendo is leasing it's technology to other manufacturers like panasonic so they can put game cube technology in other equipment. Imagine buying a DVD player and it haveing the capibility of playing gamecube games. Nintendo really did it's homework. Nintendoes closest rivel will be the Xbox. The Xbox is also very easy to program for and it uses DirectX, Dirext 3d, etc. so makers of PC games can easialy port their products to the Xbox. IMHO Computer graphics have always been superior to consoles. The Xbox may be the only exception. the Xbox IMO is amed at an older generation. The Xbox has some unique features that other consols don't or have as an add on. The hard drive, ability to play MP3's. DVD's, High Speed Connection to the internet, etc. I wouldn't put it past microsoft to offer a web TV add on in the future. So it's going to be very intresting to find out how this all plays out. It reminds me of the Nintendo and Sega console wars of days gone buy. Looks like I am going to have to suscribe to EGM again. alas I am getting married in october and a BIG honeymoon to walt disney world next june, so my next console is going to have to wait a year or so. By then 1 console should be the victor. For now I have my Playstation 1 and my computer with my ATI radeon card.
FUN
This is really going to be a Fun 2 years. I don't think the PS/2 is going to make it becaue of it's dual processing. It's very hard to program for. Nintendo made that mistake with the N64 and lost some 3rd party developers. Nintendo didn't make that mistake twice. The gamecube is supposed to be very easy to program. And it's internal workings are small and in-expensive to manufacture. Also I hear nontendo is leasing it's technology to other manufacturers like panasonic so they can put game cube technology in other equipment. Imagine buying a DVD player and it haveing the capibility of playing gamecube games. Nintendo really did it's homework. Nintendoes closest rivel will be the Xbox. The Xbox is also very easy to program for and it uses DirectX, Dirext 3d, etc. so makers of PC games can easialy port their products to the Xbox. IMHO Computer graphics have always been superior to consoles. The Xbox may be the only exception. the Xbox IMO is amed at an older generation. The Xbox has some unique features that other consols don't or have as an add on. The hard drive, ability to play MP3's. DVD's, High Speed Connection to the internet, etc. I wouldn't put it past microsoft to offer a web TV add on in the future. So it's going to be very intresting to find out how this all plays out. It reminds me of the Nintendo and Sega console wars of days gone buy. Looks like I am going to have to suscribe to EGM again. alas I am getting married in october and a BIG honeymoon to walt disney world next june, so my next console is going to have to wait a year or so. By then 1 console should be the victor. For now I have my Playstation 1 and my computer with my ATI radeon card.
Buggy Loop
New member
bostroy, the kojima interview was on coremagazine or something like that (gia,gamerweb maybe). Im to lazy to search over 4 months or archives just to find it
But its there, you can search.
But its there, you can search.