Which version of Catalyst supports x1900 AIW & 650 PCI TV Tuners in XP MCE 2005 SP3?

[ATImeShifter]

Which version of Catalyst supports x1900 AIW & 650 PCI TV Tuners in XP MCE 2005 SP3?

I just did a complete reinstallation of XP MCE 2005 and haven't been able to get MCE to recognize my x1900 AIW's TV tuner using the latest Catalyst driver, 9.3. It's been a while since I spent much time here and was wondering if more recent versions of Catalyst no longer support the x1900's tuner under MCE, and if so what's the last/best version of Catalyst that does support it?

I also have a 650 PCI in my system, which MCE does recognize under 9.3.

Note that under MMC 9.16, which I don't intend to use but installed to be on the safe side and because I like the Avivo transcoder that comes with its installation package, I am able to see and use both tuners. So the x1900 tuner is working, and 9.3 at least partly supports it, just not under MCE.

Also note that I'm up to SP3 on XP MCE 2005, if that matters.

My previous installation of XP MCE 2005 was SP2, using Catalyst 7.1 (yeah, it's been a while!), and I was able to use both tuners (including both the OTA DTV and analog cable tuners of the 650) under MCE w/o a problem.

Needless to say, I never bothered with Vista, both due to its various problems, and because it didn't support the x1900's tuner. I'm going to skip it completely and put together a Win 7 system eventually, with the latest and greatest video and tuner hardware. But this will be my main system until then.

Thanks!

 

[DA1745]

I just did a complete reinstallation of XP MCE 2005 and haven't been able to get MCE to recognize my x1900 AIW's TV tuner using the latest Catalyst driver, 9.3. It's been a while since I spent much time here and was wondering if more recent versions of Catalyst no longer support the x1900's tuner under MCE, and if so what's the last/best version of Catalyst that does support it?

I also have a 650 PCI in my system, which MCE does recognize under 9.3.

Note that under MMC 9.16, which I don't intend to use but installed to be on the safe side and because I like the Avivo transcoder that comes with its installation package, I am able to see and use both tuners. So the x1900 tuner is working, and 9.3 at least partly supports it, just not under MCE.

Also note that I'm up to SP3 on XP MCE 2005, if that matters.

My previous installation of XP MCE 2005 was SP2, using Catalyst 7.1

Hey, I seem to be in a similar boat as you but with an A-I-W x800XL PCI-E.
I came to the conclusion that SP3 is interfering with good operation of these setups. While I was able to get MCE, MMC, and CMC to start/semi-work with the card using Catalyst 9.1 and MMC 9.16 (there were green static lines and static accompanying it), I also had to use the MCE reset program (does the registry deletion for you) a few times in there, otherwise I got a green (blank screen) or no tuner found a few times.

It's possible that with a reset you might be able to get MCE to display a TV picture. Initially, after I started MMC, I could not get MCE 2005 to display a picture. After using the reset tool MCE was able to display a picture (not sure why it happened). That was the 1st but not last time I had to reset MCE.

I'm still having issues with being forced to install the T200 Unified WDM driver but back in XP Pro SP2 using Catalyst 9.3 and MMC 9.16 the display issues are greatly improved (going to try it on MCE 2005 SP2 soon) on a different computer.

Also Microsoft's MediaCenter Powertoy doesn't work in SP3 and I've been getting the same run around from them for more than a year (it's an unsupported products blah blah blah).

 

[ATImeShifter]

Interesting. We do have different cards and setups, but perhaps there is some commonality here. I too was beginning to suspect that SP3 was the culprit here. I never upgraded to it on my previous installation of XP MCE (nearly identical setup, but with a different boot/system drive, and a new data drive, neither of which should have made the slightest bit of different in this particular matter), and was able to use both tuners on SP2 w/o a problem. The reinstallation was for reasons having nothing to do with MCE itself (new boot/system drive, and various other issues).

Suspecting that maybe 9.3 was the problem, I decided to try to install a pevious version of Catalyst. So I went to the ATI site, but the default "legacy drivers" page is for XP 64, not MCE (which is 32). I had the hardest time finding the page for the 32 bit drivers, but finally found it. Nearly half a day wasted, I installed 8.5, which is the first version that claims to support SP3. But I had the same problem as with 9.3. It has no problem seeing, tuning and recording the tuner on my 650, but it can't find the tuner on my x1900.

I'm going to try going back to 7.1, which is the version that I used in my previous installation, but I suspect that it won't work under SP3. If so, then unless I'm not understanding something here or there's something else that I need to do, it looks like I'm going to have to reformat and reinstall XP MCE but only up to SP2, and then experiment again with drivers to see which is the most recent one that will recognize my x1900's tuner. I was fine with SP2 on my old installation. All my software ran fine on it, and it loaded all the latest hotfixes and upgrades. I just figured that with a fresh installation, I might as well go with the latest and "greatest" (as if).

Do you know of any good reason why I'd want SP3? I'm running NIS 2009 and connected through a NAT router, so I'm fairly well-protected, I think. But if it means losing my x1900's tuner, I'd rather do without SP3's features than without the tuner.

I'm actually a little confused by your post. Are you saying that you were able to get MCE to recognize your AIW's tuner under SP3, and that it works properly under it in MCE? If so, was all that was required was to run this "MCE Reset" program? And if so, what is this program, and where can I get it? What does it do? Is it a tool that deletes the "Tuners" key in the registry?

Although, come to think of it, I also used the MCE Powertoys in my previous installation, and if it doesn't work under SP3, then it might not be worth the bother.

 

[kn00tcn]

cant you uninstall sp3 or was it slipstreamed?

why wouldnt pre sp3 drivers work in sp3? not like the driver management changed

 

[ATImeShifter]

A moot point now as I ended up reformatting and reinstalling the OS, without upgrading to SP3. (And I thought that you can't uninstall SP3, or at least that it could mess up a system, and in any case it was such a fresh installation that reinstalling wasn't that big a deal.)

I ended up doing this because no matter what combinations of drivers I used, I couldn't get MCE to recognize the x1900's tuner. And, what do you know, it now recognizes both tuners. Although, it took quite a few attempts before I got the right combination of drivers, and there was this whole crazy thing with the software for my ATI RW+ remote not loading properly. I had to not only uninstall everything, but manually delete entries in the registry and ATI folders. Not something that I want to go through for a very long time.

It's hardly news that ATI's installation software sucks big time. Instead of having one central interface from which you can choose which drivers and apps you want to install, then let it do its thing without your intervention, you have to manually install a bunch of disparate drivers and apps, and even worse, make sure that they're compatible with each other, and with your OS and hardware. This is not consumer and service-oriented company.

Anyway, I finally got it to work--almost, as MMC still doesn't work, which for the most part I can live with since I rarely use it, except for Media Library, which I use a lot to convert DVR-MS files into MPEG1 format (although, if you or anyone else knows of a good batch converter that does this better and faster than ML, I'd be grateful to find out).

I don't know for sure that this can't work under SP3, but I just didn't feel like wasting my time finding out. I was happy with SP2 before, so I'll be ok with it now, I'm sure. I don't do anything too complex or intensive on my PC, like gaming, so it should be fine for my needs.

Also, my understanding is that MCE can't be slipstreamed. So anyone installing it not from an image had better be prepared for 3-4 hours of boring setup work, between the formatting, OS and driver installation, and settings adjustments. Ech. Not my favorite task.

Btw, in case anyone wants to know, I'm using Catalyst 7.1, RW 3.04 & MMC 9.16, which was my previous combination.

 

[kn00tcn]

'Instead of having one central interface from which you can choose which drivers and apps you want to install, then let it do its thing without your intervention, you have to manually install a bunch of disparate drivers and apps, and even worse, make sure that they're compatible with each other, and with your OS and hardware. This is not consumer and service-oriented company.'

that was back in the day, or maybe just in xp

there should also be a catalyst uninstall utility in recent drivers

here's some vista installer action

hotlinking since this section & thread isnt high traffic

 

[ATImeShifter]

I tried the ATI "Uninstall all" utility, but still had to manually remove some folders and registry keys and even trees. Perhaps they got it better in Vista, which I've never installed, but it's hard for me to believe that a company that was sincere in fixing its CS problems would still let XP users hang in the wind. A company's treatment of its customers tends to be reflected across its product line, including legacy products.

I doubt that my next card will be ATI. Thankfully, I probably won't need to get a new one for another year or two. I tend to be a non-early adopter these days, especially after the Vista fiasco.

Btw, I finally got MMC to work. A bunch of uninstalls and reinstalls and reboots did the trick. Now my system's set up like before, only "cleaner"-seeming. MCE is great!

 

[DA1745]

Nearly half a day wasted, I installed 8.5, which is the first version that claims to support SP3. But I had the same problem as with 9.3. It has no problem seeing, tuning and recording the tuner on my 650, but it can't find the tuner on my x1900.

Do you know of any good reason why I'd want SP3? I'm running NIS 2009 and connected through a NAT router, so I'm fairly well-protected, I think. But if it means losing my x1900's tuner, I'd rather do without SP3's features than without the tuner.

I'm actually a little confused by your post. Are you saying that you were able to get MCE to recognize your AIW's tuner under SP3, and that it works properly under it in MCE? If so, was all that was required was to run this "MCE Reset" program? And if so, what is this program, and where can I get it? What does it do? Is it a tool that deletes the "Tuners" key in the registry?

Although, come to think of it, I also used the MCE Powertoys in my previous installation, and if it doesn't work under SP3, then it might not be worth the bother.

Hey, sorry for the Delay. Yes, eventually I was able to get MMC, CMC, and MCE 2005 SP3 to recognize and use the TV tuner on my X800XL all at the same time HUGE BUT THOUGH; because it was not watchable! The scan lines I referenced above appeared as green lines being randomly painted on the screen horizontally, with static mixed with the normal sound it was like watching a horizontal pink floyd concert with white noise pumped in over the top). Sometimes if I restarted and messed around with tuners I would get lucky and the lines/static would lesson a bit or maybe all but disapper but it was always short lived, the next start up or reboot they'd be back....so yes the programs worked (Catalyst 9.1 & MMC 9.16) but it wasn't watchable. (If I had my wish I would have been very happy with a Catalyst around 6.2 or older and MMC 9.09 or older - something that used the older analog WDM-NSP drivers and not the T200 drivers). I've barfed on about the problems with that and the x800xl elsewhere on this and other threads seeking help. It gets worse b/c ATI removed the MCE driver for the older versions of Catalyst (they integrated it into the setup at some point but I'm not sure which version of Catalyst / MMC that they did that).

Other issues or problems unique to SP3: I and someone on Driver Heaven experienced/reported that when using MMC under that similar / basic setup (MCE 2005 SP3 - MMC 9.16) when hitting record in MMC it would stop almost immediately and the resulting file was blank. No setting to fix this it would just stop. MCE Power Toys doesn't work with SP3 (yet, if ever).

It was a PAIN IN THE A$$ trying to get them working together (shuting down MCE eh.... files/services) to get MMC running then MCE would no longer detect the tuner so it would have to be reset. Finally they all three co-existed but for the scan lines that don't exist in SP2.
One Caveat: my MCE 2005 SP3 was a slipstreamed copy that someone put together, its possible that-that played a role in the problem of the green scan lines (who knows).

I am trying the card out on a few more builds / OS and will be trying that same SP3 version of MCE 2005 again, in a system that does not have digital audio...To see if I can avoid the T200 drivers or if they are mandatory on the AIW X800XL PCI-E (unlike the AIW X800XT).

I have a question for you about your MMC application Did you get it to Install? and Does it start up, but then just give you a blank screen? Or does it give you the old familar "failed to initilize...." blah blah blah?
B/c if it starts but then all you get is a BLANK SCREEN. Try doing the Registry edit to Shut off TV-On-Demand "feature" which as you know is on full time in the MMC 9.10 - MMC 9.16 versions. Even though I was running my X800 XL AIW on a Core 2 Duo E4400 system clocked at 2.6Ghz w/ 2GB RAM, it would NOT show a picture at all for the TV Tuner input until I did the reg edit. (I have it linked on another system or you can probably google it if you dont' have it already). I got a hint that it was this when messing around with the other inputs (s-video / composite) because they have the TV-On-Demand off by default so for a split second as I'd switch from them to the TV Tuner i'd see/hear a picture. After I did the reg edit you have to check it b/c it re-enables itself a lot...It didn't "take" the first time and re-enables when you switch tuner inputs, when you change some sound settings...PITA! - STRIKE THAT LAST PARAGRAPH...don't know what the code is for Strike on this forum??

Ok, next thing the MEDIA CENTER RESET tool:
http://www.salloway.org.uk/mediacenter/util/index.htm
It's the Second application on the page. Although you may find the first one usefull as well...

cant you uninstall sp3 or was it slipstreamed?

why wouldnt pre sp3 drivers work in sp3? not like the driver management changed

You can un-install SP3, I had to do this on a machine in order to be able to un-install IE 7 (another long story) - if you install IE 7 then upgrade to SP3 you can not un-install it. - VS if you install SP3 first then install IE 7. But anyway, the system did peculiar things and icons settings never were right again. So I ended up uninstalling IE 7 (once I could) in SP2. Then re-installed SP3, then installed IE7. If you read MS's explanation for why it must be done it's because IE6 and IE7 under SP2 are not the same as in SP3....GRRR (would have been nice to know that before we upgraded).

ATImeShifter:
No, No compelling reason to upgrade from SP2 to SP3. You still get all the security updates with SP2.

 

[DA1745]

A moot point now as I ended up reformatting and reinstalling the OS, without upgrading to SP3. (And I thought that you can't uninstall SP3, or at least that it could mess up a system, and in any case it was such a fresh installation that reinstalling wasn't that big a deal.) - You can but it's far better to work from a clean install that reverting back...so you did the right thing.

I had to not only uninstall everything, but manually delete entries in the registry and ATI folders. Not something that I want to go through for a very long time.

It's hardly news that ATI's installation software sucks big time. Instead of having one central interface from which you can choose which drivers and apps you want to install, then let it do its thing without your intervention, you have to manually install a bunch of disparate drivers and apps, and even worse, make sure that they're compatible with each other, and with your OS and hardware. This is not consumer and service-oriented company.

Also, my understanding is that MCE can't be slipstreamed. It can be So anyone installing it not from an image had better be prepared for 3-4 hours of boring setup work, between the formatting, OS and driver installation, and settings adjustments. Ech. Not my favorite task.

Btw, in case anyone wants to know, I'm using Catalyst 7.1, RW 3.04 & MMC 9.16, which was my previous combination.

I agree with you about ATI doing a terrible job (in regards to the AIW drivers Catalyst & MMC). They have made things worse by having removed most of the files from their site now. They were not open and up front about changes they made, (changes from WDM-SP, to WDM-NSP and the huge change from WDM-NSP to T200 Unified Digital drivers - which broke a lot of set ups b/c of the incompatibility to older MMC versions; had they clearly laid out the differences and put together a Matrix of Catalyst versions matched to MMC versions (and guildes on how to manually install NSP, or SP drivers etc it would have gotten them high marks).
========================================================

I tried the ATI "Uninstall all" utility, but still had to manually remove some folders and registry keys and even trees. Perhaps they got it better in Vista, which I've never installed, but it's hard for me to believe that a company that was sincere in fixing its CS problems would still let XP users hang in the wind. A company's treatment of its customers tends to be reflected across its product line, including legacy products.

I doubt that my next card will be ATI. Thankfully, I probably won't need to get a new one for another year or two. I tend to be a non-early adopter these days, especially after the Vista fiasco.

Btw, I finally got MMC to work. A bunch of uninstalls and reinstalls and reboots did the trick. Now my system's set up like before, only "cleaner"-seeming. MCE is great!

Very Glad you got it up and running the way you wanted. Woot! I don't think all SP3 versions are bad, for example I have an IBM ThinkCentre with a AIW 9800Pro running XP Pro SP3 - Catalyst 6.2 & MMC 9.08 (just like I like with the Analog WDM-NSP drivers). Works Very well. Seems to something with either the T200 digital Drivers =OR= MCE SP3 or both that causes the problem. Your X1900 can't run on the old WDM-Analog drivers and I'm in the process of finding out whether my AIW x800XL PCI-e can either. The AIW x800XT as I mentioned before has NO problem running the older Catalysts with MMC 9.08 and WDM-NSP drivers. But that system has (analog motherboard sound) and/or AIW X800XT came out a while before the AIW X800XL.

I thought I had a test bed with a PCI-E slot and no digital audio to test my AIW X800XL PCI-E on to see if It will run without the T200 drivers but it's in need of parts... But on my Abit IP35-e motherboard with the digital built in RealTek sound, it's not possible to complete the install of anything but the T200 drivers -- so I'm stuck not knowing if it's possible for the AIW x800XL to run with analog drivers (WDM-NSP). I've posted on 4 boards but no one has replied to that yet. Without a compatible non - digital audio set up to test on, i'm currently stuck. If in the end

To the other parts, yeah the old "unified Uninstaller" was terrible. I use the Driver Cleaner Pro program to clean out as much of the left over Registry and folders that windows tucks away as it can. It does most if not all of the work of cleaning out the registry for you.

However, as kn00tcn referenced it's a nicer tool now a days in Vista for sure. But I still use DCP (old habits die hard).
I have had very little trouble with ATI's software for that last many years when using plain graphic's cards and the pci/Pci-e tv tuner cards for the last year plus. Most people can install the new catalyst drivers right over the old and never have any problems. It was mostly just the AIW users that recognized the enormous potential of the products but were let down and then finally abandoned when AMD bought ATI, and they shut down the program.
I've been so happy with my TV Wonder 650's Combos that I though I should have left ATI a long time ago (it's hard to say whether/if AMD hadn't fired the entire department what would have been the outcome)...ATI was certainly off track with MMC 9.10-MMC9.16 but there was talk that it was due for a major revision...whether that would have been just switching over to CMC or what who knows.

ATI/AMD should do the following:
1) For a short time post all the legacy drivers / MMC versions for users to get what they don't have.
2) Work with Beyond TV / or \ Sage TV for a 1/2 priced version for AIW users so we can have the VISTA support promised for the X800, x1800, x1900 AIW users (and not have to shell out $99).
3)Open up the old source code for MMC so that an open source group could have a go at improving the favorite versions.

 

[kn00tcn]

doesnt MMC have licensed code, so it would be illegal for the installer to be posted? or was that something else (dealing with the 650's drivers/install files)

 

[shasha]

I just went through all of this crap with my old AIWX800XT (AGP dinosaur that it is). ATi told me that it is no longer supported, that it is an SP3 issue and to use BeyondTV.

I had to restore using an image from quite a long time ago (was actually for my AIW 9800 Pro...that's old) and was able to get a working setup with MMC9.06 and CAT 5.6 and used the manual method to install the WDM SP drivers. I tried updating the display driver seperately but it broke the TV tuner each time.

I don't know how many driver issues have been resolved for the x800XT since 5.6, but everything seems to be working pretty well and MMC is nice and responsive and captures well. I never liked the NSP or T200 unified crap and since that's broken I'm kind of stuck in time.

I'll have to upgrade the system eventually, but I never had the desire to upgrade to Vista (which seems more and more like the latest incarnation of WinME) and everything on my system works and works extremely well. Only thing I can't run on it up to this point is FarCry2 because it requires SM3.0. I guess that is the beginning of the end for this card and system.

 

[kn00tcn]

vista more & more like ME? more like less & less (with each SP/as time goes on/drivers mature)

7 is gonna be the new XP though

 

[shasha]

vista more & more like ME? more like less & less (with each SP/as time goes on/drivers mature)

7 is gonna be the new XP though

Vista's already being replaced with 7; now I don't know all the ins and outs of the reasoning or the similarities or what's being carried over and what's being dumped between the two; I just know that if I had bought Vista only to find out that it isn't even going to be fixed before they come out with a new OS I'd be pissed.

WinXP had some issues too, but they've continued (even up to just a few months ago with SP3) to improve it and it's extremely stable. Plus it doesn't hassle me when I want to install something or run an executable. It just works.

I don't think that Vista is ever going to mature to the same level. They did the same thing with ME; they threw it out there and then kind of covered their ears when people started complaining about how crappy it was.

 

[DA1745]

Sorry for the Thread Hijack...

doesnt MMC have licensed code, so it would be illegal for the installer to be posted? or was that something else (dealing with the 650's drivers/install files)

Hey kn00tcn, it may have some kind of code that's automatically installed but it's not card or system specific in anyway (meaning) if it's there its irrelevant. ATI/AMD had and still has a few MMC versions posted (MMC 9.16 and MMC 9.08 if you dig). They had many more posted until just recently. The thing that is licensed to them from Cyberlink is the DVD Encoder (which they still offer freely on the website). They long ago took down the encoder that they now have integrated (for MCE and AIW cards).

I just went through all of this crap with my old AIWX800XT (AGP dinosaur that it is). ATi told me that it is no longer supported, that it is an SP3 issue and to use BeyondTV. Doesn't that just fry your resisters?!? I mean they abondoned us with VISTA despite ATI having promised (in Writing) support for X1900 & X800XT...FINE Beyond TV sounds is a splendid application and the fact that it allows Vista use with AIW(s) AND the TV Wonder 650's (etc). Is awesome, but I don't think we should have to shell out full price for it. ATI should have negotiated a deal with Beyond TV for AT MINIMUM half off there $99 application!

I don't know how many driver issues have been resolved for the x800XT since 5.6. I think as long as the TV Tuner card is doing what you want (showing TV recording etc. then your golden). I've been experimenting with DTV converters (set to CH 3 and importing Standard Digital OTA) so no imperative need to upgrade). There is always the Eye Candy of the TV Wonder 650's 1080 or 720 on computer monitor or TV but I'm still running AIW's for recording archiving some programs as low HD space.

I'll have to upgrade the system eventually, but I never had the desire to upgrade to Vista (which seems more and more like the latest incarnation of WinME) and everything on my system works and works extremely well. Only thing I can't run on it up to this point is FarCry2 because it requires SM3.0. I guess that is the beginning of the end for this card and system.

Well I'm no cheerleader of THE EMPIRE, and if I hadn't gotten Vista Ult. SP1 for $69 I would not have bought it, but Vista Media Center is Very Nice in all but the enormous file sizes it creates. I use TV Media Pak 2008 in order to get QAM with VMC, but that records in .WTV and there are FEW programs to convert and compress the enormous files sizes. Otherwise, I'd be very happy with that aspect. As to Vista's stops, stutters and sometimes general sluggish response there is great improvement with Windows 7 which you can download the RC1 until June 2009 something (giving you a fully functioning free Operating system until March 10th 2010 or so, then it will continue to run but it shuts down every 2 hours until June 2010...still that's 9 months away before you start to get crippleware and they notify you (2) weeks before hand of that change so you can save off files etc. and move on if you haven't already (or possibly upgrade from there???IDK about that).

The application that crashes the most for me is Internet Explorer 95% to 5% other ....I try not to use it, but the rest of Vista seems pretty stable. And if Microsoft would build in a restore previous session like Firefox i wouldn't care, but it pisses me tracking down my lost open documents. However XP crashes my IE 6, IE 7, and IE 8 browsers just as often!
===================================================================
To the post that followed, Vista is a mature OS. It's just rather bloated and is not set up for speed. XP remains much faster (although SP3 broke a number of laptops especially and caused peculiar bx in some companies desktops) back when it was released spring 2008, and it continues to cause lots of issues with programs not easily pinned down (from Microsoft's own power toys, even ATI). So nothing is perfect.
Windows 7 is much lighter/faster (i've working with BETA for a while) and soon the RC1 which I downloaded a few weeks back, it's essentially a dramatic overhaul of Vista. People are running it on ATOM processor laptops with 1GB of RAM...so it's a LARGE improvement. Give it a try it's free to download and like I said it's keys are valid until next year June (March 2 hour uptime) but by then likely there will be commercial version or RC2 out.

One last thing...businesses/govt\universities etc carry a lot of weight with MS. When they in large mass said Vista's not ready...and they said we'll stick with XP, they got MS to several times change the End of Service dates for things like Downgrading/Upgrading to XP licenses....the Support Service timeframe for XP has also been extended a few times. So as MS saw it, they needed to make some significant changes and to push the product quickly (which isn't always a good thing but in this case it seems to be). They also needed to get out from behind the stigma (esp. in the business world) of Vista... No matter how much they (have) and continue to improve Vista - it simply isn't / wasn't going to be adopted by the business Et. Al. community.
On the other hand for businesses already using or intending to move up to the 64Bit OS Windows 7 will be offering them some significant performance gains with impressive I Core and high GB memory systems.

 

[shasha]

Yeah my son's been beta testing Win 7 for a while now and I just wasn't impressed with it to be honest. IE was a real pain in the butt for him too. I suppose that if I had some more up to date hardware that the advantages would be pretty apparent, but I still haven't found anything other than FarCry 2 that I can't run on my system and isn't still 32 bit.

I've learned my lesson from jumping onto the bleeding edge of stuff way too many times in the past. I'll wait for someone else to work the bugs out and when I need to update I will. I've got no interest in Win 7 until it's officially out and probably has a service pack out. I just don't have the time or patience anymore. Heck I may just do a restore again and leave SP2 on my WinXP machine. Everything worked great on my system; it's something that they included that broke it and with no plans to fix it I don't see the advantages of SP3.